Halifax and No Notice of Sums in Arrears/Default Sums - old loan.

[D.J.F.]

Hi,

I've started a complaint with Halifax in June 21 regarding lack of notice of default sums/sums in arrears provided at the correct frequency in accordance Section 86B CCA on a loan agreement.

In March 22 they came back to me with copies of notices previously provided which started in 2011. They should have been sent for the previous 5 years (yes I was in trouble with the loan for a while). This letter also mentioned that there was a "change in the administration system" which would explain a "change in format" of the notices, but this occurred in 2015 and I had not enquired about the format of the notices. I was enquiring about their existence.

I have written to them a further 16 times asking them to confirm that no notices were provided prior to 2011, but they've ignored me. Now they've written again saying the complaint is closed and no further letters will be read, stating that they've given a final answer on the case and that is the notices weren't present due to the "change in administration system" 

I've called them to get clarification on this and couldn't get through to the person that had written to me. I spoke to a colleague and he said, it's likely those particular notices had been deleted or archived and there was no culpability. 

The account is settled, but I've had 3 or 4 DSAR's on the account while it was live and at no point are these notices included. It's obvious to me they were never generated and sent. I asked the guy today if that was a possibility to which he would not comment. But he stated that they were under no obligation to hold that information due to its age. I asked why all other information prior to 2011 and from the loan inception was present, but not the notices, and he simply repeated the case is closed and that I can go FOS route within 6 months of their "final answer" which he says was dated march 22.

At no point in their March 22 letter do they say it's their final decision, and indeed, the letter starts with the words "We agree with your complaint" 

They're obviously giving me the run around and hoping I'll go away. 

has anyone got any experience with auditing historic agreements, particularly lack of NOSA/NDS? Anyone know how to get around the Halifax complaints department and escalate further? 

Any advice welcome...

[dx100uk]

i will gather you are trying to say because of no NOSIA between xxx and xxx date they should not have charged you interest nor levied and penalty charges, so you want some money back?

its gonna be a hard nut to crack s even if you could prove it, they will claim its outside of 6yrs, then move on to stating that its outside of the 3yrs period when you should have reasonably known you could have claimed.

how much do you think they owe you?

 

dx

 

[D.J.F.]

Hi, Yes I had a similar thing happen for an identical product and situation with a different lender. But They came to me while the loan was live and said They'd messed up due to a system error. They reduced my product by 15.5k. Appreciate I was lucky with that.

Is the 'proof' not apparent in the fact that they're not present.? in Any DSAR's and subsequent investigation by Them? Surely if there are crucial rules to stick to within a financial agreement then evidence of that should be retained and available should it ever go to litigation? 

[dx100uk]

not outside of 6yrs no sadly,

theres no remit that compels a creditor to keep all data concerning a product outside of 6yrs esp once paid off. AFAIK

[D.J.F.]

What about if the agreement is live? The complaint was lodged while it was still live. 

And is it conceivable that all information for the dates in question IS available and has been provided in DSAR's and the only thing missing is these notices? If that's the argument, why are they not present in earlier DSAR's?

Surely that can't be accepted.... also can I demand that records are provided of the destruction/deletion of those specific notices? 

Thanks for engaging by the way, Albeit you're not filling me with hope here. 

[dx100uk]

but are they not saying they have no data before 2011? and these notices relate to a period before that?

they dont have to keep the actual letters no nor produce them, just like say a default notice, they only have to hold data that they were sent. typically this info is in the comms log under their relevant codes on xxx date. xx date etc etc 

 

 

[D.J.F.]

Their original answer on paper in March 22 said "these are the notices we've sent" with copies attached starting from 2011 and correct thereafter........ then it said "you may have noticed a change in format due to admin system change etc" which occurred in 2015 (and so at this point, is irrelevant to me)

I wrote back several times asking to confirm that no notices were sent before 2011. They've never answered that question. 

I'll note at this point as well that I hadn't actually made an accusation, I'd asked for them to demonstrate what nosia they'd sent. So no "decision" at that point was required.

It was their response which then triggered the accusation (complaint) and follow on letters. This letter was received after almost a year of writing to them and this was the first time they gave me a complaint reference number. And the letter starts with BOLD statement saying "we agree with your complaint" But then it's ambiguous because it goes on to say 

"we should have got back to you sooner and recognise we've done something wrong" "Here's a cheque for £50 for not responding. So it's like the complaint reference is to do with the late responses and not the actual core complaint of lack of Nosia

Now they've written to me stating that their answer (above) was final, and that the notices they'd sent (2011 onwards) "were the only ones they had available"  "due to a change in the administration system"

but they'd already told me previously that this occurred in 2015, and when they told me that first time, they only referenced it as me maybe noticing a change in format of the notices. Nothing to do with 'frequency' or 'lack of' notices from 2005 - 2011. 

Then verbally only (so far) on the phone today, a guy said what you've said and they had no obligation etc etc. I asked why (if they existed) they would not be present in earlier DSAR's when the account was in its mid stages - no comment. 

I checked with him what the reference number was referring to and he said "it refers to both the late response AND the Nosia complaint.

then just repeated FOS, Final decision etc etc. 

I called back again to try to reach the sender of my latest letter closing the case and I got a different guy.

I expanded a bit of the above, but also said to him that the previous guy had assured me that the complaint reference number WAS to do with Nosia, and that the letter starts with "We agree with your complaint". I asked him why the case is closed if they agree with the complaint? He agreed with me that it was ambiguous and re-opened the complaint. On the deletion of data, Surely they would all be missing if a new system had deemed them disposable.

In answer to your data question, no, they're not saying "no data prior to 2011" data is present in my DSAR's from the loan inception 2005. Just not these notices. And I also think I've checked for codes (I'm looking at a lot of different accounts) and they're not there. 

I can't believe that they could win by saying the items I'm looking for are the only thing that's ever been deleted from my records? It's pretty bare-faced right?

And also, why wouldn't they just start with that?

We don't have to hold that data so See-ya.

Why try and mix up and change the meaning of letters previously sent, or use "admin system" as an excuse? 

 

[dx100uk]

you had complaints running. they've acked that they were lacking in not responding in a timely manner and given you a £50 cheque because of that.

thats as far as it runs.

they appear to be indicating that, due to a system change/upgrade, it caused their system not to hold your required data prior to 2011 relevant to said complaints.

they dont state if that means all data, nor is it obvious if you sent a general SAR or specifically asked for targeted data. if the latter, then .......

 

[D.J.F.]

Yeah that's correct. Here's the correspondence below, for clarity.

They're mixing the messages to suit, and it's very clear that they didn't send out the notices as they're obligated to do. 

They've drawn attention to the admin change, but not in connection to the missing notices, (march 22 letter) then a year later advising me that the system change WAS the cause of the issue and that they'd already told me that in March 22. They're reaching. 

inbound April 23 .pdfinbound March 22 alleged final decision.pdfInbound August 23 Case closed.pdf

 

In their March 22 letter which they are now calling their final decision. You can see they've said "I've enclosed copies of all the letters we've sent you since 2011, you'll notice a change in format of these letters after November 2015 as we changed our admin system"

Then in April 23 they say "due to a change in the admin system, the letters I'd sent you are the only ones we have available"

2 different things completely. Even if I'm out on timing, or data-holding etc, can I not shine a light on the fact that they're clearly lying about this? 

Also, would you say the march 22 letter adequately serves as a final decision letter? There's no mention of a 'final' decision. Although they do tell me I can go FOS

Edited August 15, 2023 by D.J.F.