Just found out car is grey import!

[theDmanscotland]

Hi guys

I recently bought a used scenic from arnold clarke, paisley.

 

I have not yet contacted the branch with my issue as I want to get all the advice / help possible first.

 

I purchased a used Renault Megane Scenic 1.4 Authentique, from AC in Paisley (Vauxhall, Phoenix Park) for £3800 using Black Horse for finance through the dealer, I took delivery on 29/04/09. I traded in a Ford Focus 1.6 saloon for £1700. I was given a 30 day warranty.

 

A couple of days ago I had a problem with the car and required to contact Renault UK for advice. Customer services could not trace my car from the registration number as they did not have a record of it. They asked for the chassis number, which I provided. I was then informed that my car was actually imported new from Cyprus. I have found out from Renault UK that the car is a GREY import and is built specifically for the Cypriate market, to differing standards...

 

In no particular order the problems I have are:

 

1. Renault UK stated that the car might not actually be the same standard of car as the UK spec would be (although following research sometimes Cypriate cars can be a higher spec!)

 

2. Ren UK stated that my anti-corrosion warranty is different from that of an original UK car (6 years instead of UK 12 years)

 

3. They stated that the service interval for a Cypriate vehicle is every 6000 miles not the uk 12000 miles (the car has been serviced by previous owners at 12000 miles and therefore any warranties might be invalid anyway)

 

4. I believe my insurance could be invalid as I have not informed my insurer of the fact that it is imported (as I didnt know!), if this is the case I feel that myself and my family have been put at uneccassary risk

 

5. Arnold Clarke did not, at any point during the sale, inform me that the car was an import

 

6. The resale value of an import is less than that of a UK car

 

7. My research has found that the finance company do not finance imported vehicles (so my finance may have been misold) or be invalid

 

I believe I have been misold the vehicle and that as a result I will lose out in the long run (resale, warranty for anti-corrosion etc). I think Arnold Clarke and Black Horse finance have some questions to answer and I believe I am due at the very least an explanation and/or compensation.

 

I would be interested in your views or indeed if you could offer any advice.

:-x:-x

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome, theDmanscotland.

 

I'll move this thread to a more appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[heliosuk]

One for scaniaman I believe

 

Further, it would appear that Renault UK have some serious issues with regards to their ability to know what vehicles actually are or even have the ability to investigate properley, or even read their own service information and guidelines.

 

We all used to make jokes about Skodas, perhaps we should be turning our attention with regards jokes to the French manufacturers, Renault and Citoren.

 

They have never seemed to forget Agincourt!!

[scaniaman]

Hope Tetley is OK.

Right Dman, I reckon you have a fair old fight on your hands, and don't be intimidated by Al Capon.

I was mis-sold a car by wee clarkie's mob, and have been fighting for over a year without success (as yet!!). Hope someone on this site can advise you on your rights under SOGA.

In the meantime, if I were you, I would write (rec del) to general manager of branch where you bought car and state your story as above, emphasing the problems associated with a grey import (especially depreciation, difficulty in reselling, value etc etc) and saying that had you known it was a grey import you would not have bought it. Ask for full refund.

If Clarks response is negative,and I'm 99.99% sure it will be, you can try the following:-

1. Report story to scams@oft (proper email on OFT website).

2.Report story to [EDIT] staff at your local TS office and ask the senior officer to forward your complaint to TS at Paisley.

3. If, after all this, your not satisfied, find a newspaper not in Clarks clutches, and give them story. (including car mags)

4. Do me a great big favour and write your story on http:// arnoldclarkforum.com

 

Only by reporting this dogs dirt enmasse to the proper authorities, can we hope to get justice. Remember that this firm, with massive 2008 profits, have absolutely no morals or scruples.

Recently, I reported to my MP who has passed letter to Lord Adonis of the Dept of Transport for his investigation.

Best of Luck.

PS. If you think that it would help your case, when reporting to TS, I have no objection to your telling them to contact Mr. Hutchison or Mr. Jolly in Perth TS to verify that they also had an accusation that Clark had mis-sold a car.

This mis-selling comes under "The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations" 2008. Section 6-3(a) "Misleading Omissions" which states that it is an offence not to disclose any material information about the goods or services. I reckon that a grey import is certainly "material information"

Trying to find thread where a lady was mis-sold a Honda by these rouges---might get her to report to OFT. Only when OFT get several complaints, will they act positively. Appears mis- selling is routine for the Clark mob.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Rooster-UK
Swear-filter bypass

[buzby]

The dealer would only have to disclose it was an import IF they had been aware of it. I'd suggest as they did not have the full service history, they would not be negligent.

 

As for Renault's nonsensical response - this is not a clone, nor a rebadging. It was made by them, in their factory. WHERE they choose to sell it is their concern. From memory, any EU purchaser will benefit from the statutory benefits, irrespective of where it was sold originally.

 

You do have a V5C? In that case it has been EU type approved. I agree it may have come as an unwelcome shock, but apart from being an inconvenience, I cannot see you having been disadvantaged in any meaningful way.

[scaniaman]

Are you in the motor trade Buzby----I think not.

Everyone except enthusiasts, wouldn't touch a grey import with a barge pole. The reasons are set out in para 2 of my first thread, and in addition getting spares can be a nightmare as agents cant compare part numbers. There are different specs on the same model depending on what region of the world it was originally destined for. The typical example is tyres. There was a batch of tyres from a top maker giving a lot of grief. After months of research, it was found that a wheeler dealer in UK bought a load of these tyres cheap, and they had been specially made for use in a very hot country----NFU for British road surfaces or climate.

A large, so called "Professional?????" dealership, should have known how to check car before they took it in. I may have agreed with you if it had not been Clark, but i wouldn't put it past them to buy in car knowing it was imported, if they got it cheap enough. These creatures will stoop to any depths to make money.

[buzby]

In the motor trade? No. But I've bought 28 cars, of which 4 were imports and a further two were assumed to be UK models but turned out not to be. In both cases, I neither lost out or were financially disadvantaged by their purchase.

 

In the UK, 85% percent or our cars are imported anyway - the fact these were not originally destined for this country is a minor inconvenience. As for part numbers being an issue, considering the OEM and after market businesses out there, the actual manufacturers part number is largely irrelevant. Your comment on tyres is hardly relevant - that is a condumable, and you would put an inappropriate oil into a car that was destined for South Africa when it spends its life in Norway.

 

As for AC - it was because it was them I'd believe that this was never checked or noted. Indeed, of the card I have PEx, the dealership ONLY verified the V5, I was not asked to declare its status, and the price offered was what I exoected. Sure, a VIN check might have told them this, but it wasnt an issue.

 

Ireland was the recipient of many thousands of cars from Japan - they were in excellent condition and shipped in containers to Dublin Port. they sold like hoy cakes. Grey imports were sold as a badge of honour, especially as the tax was a fraction of the Govts new car tax. Spares were not a problem, and I saved £9k on the new pice of a Toyota.

 

My current car is to UK spec, but just as I use software destined for other countries, I'm not losing sleep about cars that are made for another part of the world.

[heliosuk]

As for Renault's nonsensical response - this is not a clone, nor a rebadging. It was made by them, in their factory. WHERE they choose to sell it is their concern. From memory, any EU purchaser will benefit from the statutory benefits, irrespective of where it was sold originally.

 

You do have a V5C? In that case it has been EU type approved. I agree it may have come as an unwelcome shock, but apart from being an inconvenience, I cannot see you having been disadvantaged in any meaningful way.

 

Wide of the mark here buzby and this is confirmed in your second paragraph. Where they choose to sell it is their concern whilst true but different markets have different requirements. So it's possible that a car built for example, the Indian market, will and does in many cases have very different specifications. A good example of this is electric windows in the rear and not the front. I've come across cars built for the Japanese market where the owner claimed warranty but was turned down as the warranty period only applies in terms of that which it was sold with and for a certain period only. A bit like insurance policies that only cover Europe for 90 days a year.

 

Then there is the type approval issue. Just because it has a V5 does not mean it has type approval. It mearley means now ( as in the last 4 years I think that VOSA have agreed via an inspection) it's safe to use on UK and European roads. It does not necessarilly have EU type approval.

 

Grey imports cause all sorts of problems in the future with regards spares as the dealer network now looks up spares from a database which sees the VIN................don't get me going on the grief it causes for garages and owners!!!!!!!!!!!

[buzby]

I'm aware of one Irish customer who saw a Toyota 4x4 that he just had to have. It was love at first sight, but after he bought it, it was discovered NOT to have EU type approval (at the model was never intended to reach the EU, never mind Ireland. He went bald (he says!) trying to get type approval so that it could be registered and be given an IRL registration plate. HE certainly had his work cut out, but the fact that a Renault Car, possibly built in France for somewhere else finds itself in Wales, isn;t really rocket science.

 

I agree if things don't run smoothly it can be an expensive matter to resolve, but having seen Watchdog where owners of UK approved (!) cars having to pay £600 for a digital dash, is no recommendation either!

 

[scaniaman]

Yea Yea Yea, as usual.

[buzby]

Yea Yea Yea, as usual.

 

Dancing in the snow are we?

[heliosuk]

AC should have had alarm bells ringing when they bought the car as the V5 will indicate this. Given the alleged reputation of this chain it could well have been seen as an ideal way to screw a few more bob out of the deal.

 

Next, the consumer is affected and can be hugely. Not only are resale values reduced but any further remedial work needed will severley be affected. What happens with a safety recall called by VOSA?? It aint going to show.

 

And spares supply, you must have been exceedingly lucky.

 

It's true 85% of cars are imported into the UK, perhaps a sad reflection of Government turning their back on the manufacturing industry of this country but to say that most of these were not destined for this country............I think you might have a bit of a problem with basic economics here. And, you can hardly compare Eires economy with that of the UK. They have little or no manufacturing base.

 

Very pleased you saved £9K on a Toyota but does that not raise the question that cars in the UK are over priced????

 

Perhaps your efforts would be better spent campaigning for more parity on car prices with other countries rather than commenting on things which I respectfully suggest are out of your depth.

[buzby]

I see - so because I was neither affected by any financial loss or indeed had any difficulty with my imported vehicles I am somehow 'out of my depth'? I would think since I've already put my money where my mouth is shows that the humble consumer remains at RISK irrespective of how the money is spent.

 

As for my financial saving - II think we all know cars in the UK are over priced, and why an industry spring up with people taking ferries abroad to source the very products you appear to decry. Since these people were actually lauded as showing the UK Dealerships they weren't mugs - it just shows how transient this feeling is once the cars are sold on.

 

As for my time, why should I seek a system that ends competition? I would think your suggestion would be the last thing anyone would want? Since I've benefited from such a system, I'd be the last to say a purchase outwith the UK would be ill-advised. As a consumer, you should have the ability to buy from anyone you like - not, as you appear to think, somehow force all the retailers to see their goods at an identical price point.

[heliosuk]

I refer to "out of your depth" in relation to what grey imports actually are. You do not show anywhere that the customer is at risk, in fact you seem to endorse it. There are many reasons why prices within the EU varied however look at it now and you'll see that a UK spec car ordered in the EU is comparable with that of a UK spec car ordered in the UK. The only difference will be the fluctuation of exchange rates . Spec levels on a like to like basis come out as the same. However, when it comes to RHD cars it's different as the cars can be imported from outside the EU. There are different test requirements.....a whole host of stuff which adds cost to a product. Just look at what happened with videos.

 

I have not suggested that any system that encourages free trade and competition be ended or even implied it but frequently Which advises against buying such goods from overseas.

 

In conclussion, I still state that grey imports are a minefield and should be avoided at all costs unless prepared to take the consequences. Many of the posters will not understand the implications of such a purchase. If a private sale then as applies to anything, caveat emptor.

 

The workings of the motor industry are unique, unlike any other I can think of. Apart from EU type approval or other regs, it's very different, unregulated yet vehicles are getting towards the technical complications of aircraft now which just happens to be regulated.

[scaniaman]

Thanks for your email heliosuk. Don't let this Buzby wind you up as they tried this same tack with me over Globespan ages ago, and since globespan got their come-uppance. Possibly even with a Parking thing also.

Let's try and be constructive in helping Dman Scotland to get a fair deal.

[Rooster-UK]

Let us not lose sight of the fact that this thread was started by theDmanscotland, seeking advice on HIS problem.

[heliosuk]

That's exactly what I was trying to get to with reasoned argument. Too often these posts drift from the op's problem but the info can be usefull at times.

 

dman will have major issues with warranty here, especially from Renault if it is called upon. Servicing will be an issue as well at a franchised dealer, in fact could also be at a non franchised garage as well.

[scaniaman]

Went to find thread about lady mis-sold a car by AC. (it was in fact a Mazda). Now Arnold Clark have had a complaints website closed down before (arnold sucks?). I asked DMan to post his story on arnoldclarkforum.com------------------But where is it????? All i get now is GO-DADDY .COM?????????????????????

[heliosuk]

I broached this subject today over lunch with a city lawyer friend of mine who deals on a daily basis with imports of a different nature. Given the implications it could well be construed as mis-representation apparently as the car is not what it is reasonably expected to be.

[scaniaman]

Hello Dman. It is some time now since we heard from you, how are you getting on with AC and your grey import?

Since it's a Clark boast that they never take a car back, have they offered to compensate you in any way.

Please let us know of any progress with your plight.

[buzby]

Well, well, well.

 

In today's Sunday Times motoring supplement (InGear) a consume purchased a Nissan X-Trail that turned out to be a Cyptiot import. The response was pretty much as I suggested at the top of the thread, it only becomes relevant if you ask and are misinformed.

 

The only issue I have is the ST's response of not looking at the full picture as they suggested that if the buyer felt aggrieved, they would have to take the garage to court for their imagined loss (between the selling price of a similar UK-spec model and the imported version).

 

They forgot to add that if the purchase price was similarly discounted (because it WAS an import) this has to be factored in too - making such action even more risky.

[heliosuk]

 

The only issue I have is the ST's response of not looking at the full picture as they suggested that if the buyer felt aggrieved, they would have to take the garage to court for their imagined loss (between the selling price of a similar UK-spec model and the imported version).

 

They forgot to add that if the purchase price was similarly discounted (because it WAS an import) this has to be factored in too - making such action even more risky.

 

And what if it's been sold initially at a value that reflected a UK sold vehicle and the risks associated as previously pointed out. This was not in the article!

[buzby]

Why? That's the expectation within the article - so no requirement to point it out. The price the purchaser paid clearly would have been less than a standard vehicle (as why would it even be of interest?), as if it wasn't it could have been misleading.

 

The bottom line is still up to the customer when not buying a new vehicle to check - it isn't rocket science.

[tattiedigger]

Busby, have you ever tried buying a car from arnold clark? Just try and get a hold of log book before sale takes place!

Anyway, DMANS problem must have been resolved as they have never posted any progress / results.

[Big Bill]

Cyprus is in the European Union and as such it is just like buying a car from France. It is not a grey import just a relocation before retail sale.

 

One thing you must look out for is that British Forces buy cars out there with customs concessions and when these are imported they can be registered as new even though they are not. Registrations to beware are Wiltshire (Lyneham), Oxfordshire ( Brize Norton) and Portsmouth.

 

I once had a Mk 3 Cortina 2 door coupe (Ex BOAR) that had the same reg as Sierras. It got pulled every other time out but that did stop me having anything to drink before driving it.