Ramjet v NatWest \Shoosmiths Court action

[stone-broke]

Oh Ram!! Did you not call the courts and explain the situation? You would get some sort of guidance from them. Still, how can you defend your case if you haven't received the required documentation from Ssmiths? That still counts. Not too late to call and ask for guidance I hope.

Nothing changed with my case really. Have had another letter similar to the previous, asking me to make an offer. I am about to get something together and post off tomorrow. I will also repeat that I am awaiting the relevant information off them. I am sick of it all to be honest!! I have got my self straight with all my other debtors at the mo and just have s/s to deal with! It's been a long, drawn out process.

I'm sorry that there was no one to help you out on here. It does seem to have gone quiet for us both!

Don't give up Ram.....call the courts and see how things lie after explaining your situation.

SB

[stone-broke]

If this helps Ramjet, I have copied and pasted the following from another link from reading through stuff!

SB

 

Witness statements

 

3. witness statements are exactly that, witness statements, they are not skeleton arguments and should not be coinfused with them. your witness statement is your evidence, what YOU are going to say at trial. are you going to stand there and quote 11 paragraphs of wilson and first county trust while in the witness box under cross examination??? ?HELL NO of course your not , your gonna say , what happened when you entered into the agreemnt, your gonna say you never signed the agreement ( if thats the truth) and your gonna say what YOU know from your own memories and experiences. so thats what you put in your witness statement.

[ramjet]

SB,thank you.

I have just phoned the court and they have not received any witness statements from Shoosmiths either !!.

I explained I had not had the info inline with CPR requests and could not compile the info required.

The chap I spoke to suggested I send a reminder to shoosmiths and a letter to the court stating this.Also in this letter I should again emphasise the mail mix up service from shoosmiths.I will try to patch something together in line with your last post.I guess explaining what happened for me to take the loan out,my circumstances and whats going on now.

Should I say that I am prepared to start paying something as all my others creditors have accepted token payments.I am earning money now and mortgage is being paid however life has no luxuries just essential living costs.Still counting the pennies every day.

 

How much personal stuff should you include ?

 

Anyone else have any pointers greatly appreciated !!!!!!!

[bazaar]

IMHO I wouldnt offer anything remotely like I am willing to pay.

Without the requested documentation being brought forward, you cannot possibly make a comment one way or the other.

Keep the other creditors out of it for now, thats a little ace for later when you explain their unreasonable behaviour

[stone-broke]

There you go.....Bazaar has said it before I could!!

I'm so glad you got to call the court for guidance. Hopefully, you'll feel less stressed about it now.

I am certainly no expert on this stuff and still rely on good people like Bazaar to help me out! But, reading through stuff on this forum has helped (up 'til 2.00 am this morning reading links.....don't realise how the time flies!) and thats how I came across the witness statement stuff.

I have nearly finished a response to ssmiths (I'm loving it too!) and then I will have another gander re witness statements for you. I'm sure there has to be lots about such on here!

Keep me informed either re PM or posts.

SB

[ramjet]

Blimey some movement in my case !

 

Letter received from SCC I have to attend a Summary Judgement hearing on the 24th June.

No more than 30 minutes long.

 

Blimey what can i expect ? as Shoosmiths have also had this letter I wonder if it might burst them into life.

 

Ramjet

[stone-broke]

Hi Ram.........you have been quiet! Have you still not had any documents from Shoo's? What's the summary judgement about if you haven't been able to do the witness statements?

SB

[ramjet]

Have found this:-

 

A Summary judgment is simply a mechanism used under Part 24 CPR to obtain a judgment without the time and expense of preparation for trial. Usually in money claims but cant be used in Possession claims.

 

PART 24 - SUMMARY JUDGMENT - Ministry of Justice

 

It is used in cases where it is basically an open and shut case and there is no real prospect of a defence (or a claim) succeeding and there is no other reason why the claim should proceed to trial.

 

The test for Summary Judgment is very high. So for example if it is not a cut and dried case, the judge will not use the hearing to conduct a mini trial and will most likely dismiss the application and order that the case go forward to full trial.

 

If there is no real defence to the application, the judge will grant judgment at the hearing.

 

 

Oh no does not sound good, does it.I have not received all the documents from shoosmiths yet.I need to get up to speed with this all again and get back into it.He could throw it out I guess ? (no such luck)

Ramjet

[stone-broke]

Have found this:-

 

A Summary judgment is simply a mechanism used under Part 24 CPR to obtain a judgment without the time and expense of preparation for trial. Usually in money claims but cant be used in Possession claims.

 

PART 24 - SUMMARY JUDGMENT - Ministry of Justice

 

It is used in cases where it is basically an open and shut case and there is no real prospect of a defence (or a claim) succeeding and there is no other reason why the claim should proceed to trial.

 

The test for Summary Judgment is very high. So for example if it is not a cut and dried case, the judge will not use the hearing to conduct a mini trial and will most likely dismiss the application and order that the case go forward to full trial.

 

If there is no real defence to the application, the judge will grant judgment at the hearing.

 

 

Oh no does not sound good, does it.I have not received all the documents from shoosmiths yet.I need to get up to speed with this all again and get back into it.He could throw it out I guess ? (no such luck)

Ramjet

 

I think it does sound good.............ie. an 'open and shut case' re Shoo's not giving you the opportunity to prepare a defence, regardless of how many times you have requested the documents from them; there is no signed agreement. There is no defence as you cannot do yours because Shoo's are preventing you from doing one. Surely, the only judgement can be to close the case?????

SB

[NewToTheFight]

Maybe you should make an application to the court that the claimant produces the documents you require to enable you to compile a defence, back this up using an unless approach with an application to strike out. It will cost you £75 I think but if they can't produce the documents they lose

[ramjet]

Clocks ticking ,anyone give me some drafts for witness statements what should I say.I have searched this forum but I seem to go through loads of pages and achieve nothing apart from late nights.

Letter to go to shoosmiths this week and copy to the court as well.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.If it goes against me for what ever reason what will the next step be ?

 

Means tested repayments ? should I offer in the letter to the courts.I am beginning to get very concerned.

 

Cheers,

 

Ramjet

[stone-broke]

Clocks ticking ,anyone give me some drafts for witness statements what should I say.I have searched this forum but I seem to go through loads of pages and achieve nothing apart from late nights.

Letter to go to shoosmiths this week and copy to the court as well.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.If it goes against me for what ever reason what will the next step be ?

 

Means tested repayments ? should I offer in the letter to the courts.I am beginning to get very concerned.

 

Cheers,

 

Ramjet

 

Ram...........did you read my PM to you?

SB

[stone-broke]

I have sent you a message with an example of a witness statement that I have copied and pasted from another thread.

 

Hope that helps! SB

[ramjet]

received summary of costa today from Shoosmiths.

 

It amounts to £1623.00 blimey solicitors earn between £85 and £140 an hour ! and everything else seems to be disbursments.

 

Am i doing the right thing !

 

In court on the 24/06/2010 anyone been to a SUMMARY JUDGEMENT HEARING before ?,it only lasts half an hour so whats said ?

 

I am preparing some notes and will say all my other creditors have accepted reduced payments and i have in the past offered them a nominal amount in line with my other debts and monthly payments to them.Yet they have refused to accept that.

[foolishgirl]

You should serve a WS on Shoesmiths & submit a copy to court asap ramjet. It should have gone in 7 days prior to the hearing but it will probably be allowed if you get it in tomorrow or Tues.

 

This is just a simple statement setting out why an SJ should not be granted eg. no docs from Shoesmiths to enable you to compile a detailed defence & that if they can't produce an agreement, they have no right to bring a claim as there is no evidence available that an agreement existed or the terms of any alleged agreement.

 

Look at post 197 here for an example of how to set it out:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/151709-help-10.html#post1891351

 

I haven't been following your thread but if seems as though they have not complied with your CPR requests. I am assuming that you asked them to supply

(a) an agreement compliant with CCA1974 & Regs

(b) a copy of any DNs & proof of posting

© a copy of account statements from inception of the accounts.

 

You need to point this out in your WS.

 

Did you ask for all these as part of the directions with the AQ?

 

What have you done about complying with the court order as above?

 

2.Each party must have by 4pm on the 3 March 2010 give to the other party standard disclosure by list with inspection seven days thereafter.

 

3.Each party must by 4pm on the 7 April 2010 serve on every other party the signed statement of all witnesses of fact on whom they intend to rely.

 

4.pre-tiral checklists to be filed no later tahn 4pm on the 12 June 2010.

 

If you haven't done anything, I suspect that this is why they have applied for SJ. However if you have no docs, you have nothing to disclose. Have they sent you anything to comply with the above?

 

If not, note it down in your WS.

 

Unless they can produce an enforceable agreement, IMO you would be very unwise to suggest paying them anything. It is up to them to prove their claim & they must do so by producing a contract!

 

You need to read & understand the CCA1974, in particular S127 that prevents the court enforcing an agreement under certain conditions.

[miss muppet]

Hi, Ramjet please try not to panic about this or you will be going around in circles. As you have been advised this is a self help forum so basically you do have to do a bit of leg work and look round the site for the answers. Yes I have been to a summary judgement and the other side lost, had to pay my costs and then discontinued any further action. I am attaching a link which I used myself which altho a different company is pretty relevant. You will see as you read thro the thread that you do have to mug up on a lot of information and include this on your witness statement and have copies to take to court. I think it was post 63 on the link which has a list of case law which is also applicable to you. You will sometimes feel that you are destroying a rain forest by these efforts but if you get a result its worth it:-

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/145452-stayingcalm-abbey-no-cca-4.html

[ramjet]

Hi foolishgirl,

 

Ok post 197 is great

 

what should i do with these parts

 

3. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF1". The exhibit PF1 contains copies of the credit agreement and Default notice served by the claimant

 

all i have is bank statements and a copy of an unsigned agreement for loan only no overdraft on current account ,so i have nothing.I should put here that dispite numerous attempts to get the info they have failed to comply to CPR requests

 

4. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF2". The exhibit PF2 contains copies of the Judgment in Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co - [1998] All ER (D) 339

 

this i copy and download and submit yes or no ?

 

5. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF3". The exhibit PF3 contains copies of the section 87 88 and 89 Consumer Credit Act, Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Regulation 2 of Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

again i copy and download and submit

 

i am unsure as to the understanding of this.The term "shown to me " means I have printed it and read it and understood it.

When completed should I send the whole pack to shoosmiths with all the printed matter and the court as well ?.

 

Please can you deskill it for me and with the last post my head is spinning.

The WS looks great and will copy and amend where required however just need a bit of clarification.

Thanks a lot

[Blossomandebony]

Hi, Ramjet,

 

Are you thinking of admitting the debts they claim you owe, at the SJ hearing, but simply claiming that they are being intransigent by not accepting regular payments of the debt? - If so, they will be awarded judgment with full costs, no doubt.

 

The important issue is not to admit the debt in any way, shape or form.

 

At some stage the judge will ask you if you owe them the money and you must not answer yes or it is case over.

 

You must put reasonable doubt in the judge's mind that these debts are valid.

 

You say that the bank are being uncooperative and not sending CCAs and other documents / statements? Then when the judge asks "Did you spend this money?" or "Are these your debts?" you must have an appropriate answer ready that will not immediately lead to judgment against you (and I don't mean that you will have to lie!).

 

For example, something along the lines of " I have no knowledge that I have any debt to this company. At the time the so called debts occurred I was going through a turbulent time in my life (giving details of such) and am therefore unclear if I owe anything. I have asked on several occasions for clarification that any debt exists, ie by production of a valid CCa and statements etc, but the company have steadfastedly refused to supply me with any details."

 

I know this is the scenario that will occur as I've been in that situation.

 

Finally, as others have suggested I would also go on the attack by asking for a court order that will force them to supply you with the documents you require. If they don't, the court will not look kindly on their beligerrence.

 

BAE

[stone-broke]

Hi Ram.......I have found another WS that might be of some help to you.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/201319-court-claim-received-help-7.html

 

Similar case senario, with same creditors! I think it's from permalink 128 onwards.

 

Hope this helps.

 

SB

[ramjet]

default notices never received as it came from Northampton and I believe they dont have to send it however with the following parts of the example WS,what should i say ???????

 

The applicant / claimant failed to supply the respondent/ defendant any documents which the applicant mentioned in their particulars of claim and which were central to the applicants case. The respondent asked for the documents, which were pleaded in the claim on XXXXX, but the applicant failed until XXX to supply these documents. The applicant is fully aware that I am a litigant in person and therefore I have been placed at a disadvantage by their failings as I have been unable to compile a fully particularised defence

 

8. The applicant has now disclosed a copy of the agreement and the default notice (exhibit PF1), which its claim is based upon, from the brief time that I have had to digest this information I wish to raise an issue, which I would expect to expand upon at trial. The default notice is materially defective, the notice states that I have breached clause 8 of my agreement, however if we look at the agreement there is no clause 8.

 

9. The consumer credit act 1974 s87 & 88 (Exhibits PF3) are explicit that a Default Notice must be served upon a debtor prior to terminating or demanding repayment of monies. Regulation 2 of Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) states

 

I always considered myself to be of resonable intelligence however this is really doing my head in.Obviously clause 8 does not exist in my case so I should just copy and paste the parts I think are relevant.Or is clause 8 standard in the CCA and it would be standard practice to quote it on all default notices ?

Blimey late nights and I have an exam tomorrow !!!!!

[ramjet]

Hi Ram.......I have found another WS that might be of some help to you.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/201319-court-claim-received-help-7.html

 

Similar case senario, with same creditors! I think it's from permalink 128 onwards.

 

Hope this helps.

 

SB

 

Hi SB,

Looks a bit more suitable than others just disregard point 3 as no PPI.

 

Also point 2 states that i admit to a contract is that wise ?,should i not state alleged that a contract existed ?

 

I could pad it out as there has been so many requests for info and somewhere i need to add about the other information received not relating to my case.

Cutting it fine !!!!!

Ramjet

[foolishgirl]

Ramjet, I've not followed your thread so I don' know what you sent & when in the way of CPR requests or what you received & when.

It would probably help you aswell as CAGers if you can post a summary in chronological order.

 

With ref. to your post below, if you just copy from the forum without knowing the reasons for the acts & case law quoted, IMO you will find yourself in trouble in court when you have to explain the reasoning to a DJ or present argument for it to the other side.

 

However I've answered your queries as best I can:

 

Ok post 197 is great

 

what should i do with these parts

 

3. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF1". The exhibit PF1 contains copies of the credit agreement and Default notice served by the claimant

 

all i have is bank statements and a copy of an unsigned agreement for loan only no overdraft on current account ,so i have nothing.I should put here that dispite numerous attempts to get the info they have failed to comply to CPR requests

 

The agreement will be your main exhibit (see notes below on submitting exhibits); however you will also need to produce any relevant corresp. between yourself & claimants eg. CPR requests. You need 3 x copies of each - one for court, one for claimant, one for you.

4. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF2". The exhibit PF2 contains copies of the Judgment in Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co - [1998] All ER (D) 339

 

this i copy and download and submit yes or no ?

 

Look the case law up. Understand how it might apply to your case. If it doesn't, don't include it.

BTW, you don't need to include a copy at SJ stage, you can just refer to it but take a copy of the full judgment (not just the quote) to court in case the DJ asks to read it

5. There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked "PF3". The exhibit PF3 contains copies of the section 87 88 and 89 Consumer Credit Act, Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Regulation 2 of Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

again i copy and download and submit

 

As it is a Act of Parliament, you just need to quote the relevant section - you don't need the whole act with you in court although it is useful to have it to hand

 

i am unsure as to the understanding of this.The term "shown to me " means I have printed it and read it and understood it.

 

'shown to me' just means it is in the bundle of docs

 

When completed should I send the whole pack to shoosmiths with all the printed matter and the court as well ?.

 

Make sure the court get their as a priority - take it in person if you can. You can fax a copy over to Shoesmiths.

 

Please can you deskill it for me and with the last post my head is spinning.

The WS looks great and will copy and amend where required however just need a bit of clarification.

 

If you post a summary of events to date & a draft of your WS, I'm sure CAGers will all pitch in with comments before you need to send off the final version

 

With thanks to pt:

Guidance Notes on Witness Statements

 

The general rule is that any fact which needs to be proved by the evidence of witnesses is to be proved at trial by their oral evidence given in public and, at any other hearing, by their evidence in writing.

CPR r.32 and CPR PD 32 set out the formal requirements for written evidence, including witness statements. These are summarised below.

Format of the witness statement

The top right hand corner of the first page should contain:

·The party on whose behalf the statement is made;

·The initials and surname of the witness;

·The number of the statement in relation to that witness, e.g. 1st, 2nd, etc.

·The identifying initials and number of each exhibit referred to in the statement. For example, if it is the witness’s first statement and it refers to three exhibits, these should be referred to as “ABC1” to “ABC3”. In a subsequent witness statement in the same proceedings, further exhibits would start at “ABC4”;

·The date the statement was made.

The witness statement should be headed with the title of the proceedings.

The witness statement should:

·Be produced on good quality A4 paper with a 3.5cm margin;

·Be fully legible and should normally be typed on one side of the paper only;

·Be bound securely in a manner which would not hamper filing;

·Have consecutively numbered pages;

·Be divided into numbered paragraphs;

·Have all numbers, including dates, expressed in figures; and

·Give the reference to any document or documents mentioned either in the margin or in bold text in the body of the statement, for example [at page14 “ABC1”]

It is usually convenient for a witness statement to follow the chronological sequence of the events or matters dealt with. Each paragraph of a witness statement should as far as possible be confined to a distinct portion of the subject.

Content of the witness statement

·The witness statement must, if practicable, be in the witness’s own words and should be expressed in the first person;

·The first paragraph generally sets out the “who, what and why” of the statement maker:

oWho the witness is – name, residential address (or business address if he is making the statement in a business or professional capacity, together with the position held and the name of his firm or employer)

oWhat the witness’s connection with the proceedings is

oWhy the witness is making the statement;

·Witness statements should deal with facts known to the witness. To demonstrate that this is the case, words such as: “Save where I indicate to the contrary, the matters set out in this witness statement are known to me personally.” Where a fact is not within the direct knowledge of the witness, it can be included but should be preceded by, for example “I am informed by [ ] and believe that ...”.It is important to state the source of any matters or information or belief;

·Witness statements in support of or in opposition to an interim application should contain only facts relevant to that application;

·Witness statements of lay witnesses should not contain legal argument. If it is necessary to refer to the legal position, a phrase such as “I am informed by my solicitor and believe that ...” maybe used;

·Witness statements must contain a statement that the witness believes the facts in it are true;

·Witness statements should be signed and dated.

Please see outline precedent witness statement below.

Exhibits

Documents referred to in a witness statement should be produced to and verified by the witness and remain separate from the witness statement.

Copies of individual letters should be collected together and exhibited in a bundle or bundles. They should be arranged in chronological order with the earliest at the top.

Each exhibit should have a front page attached identifying its exhibit number and details of the statement to which it is exhibited.

The top right hand corner of the exhibit sheet should contain:

·The party on whose behalf the statement is made;

·The initials and surname of the witness;

·The number of the statement in relation to that witness, e.g. 1st, 2nd, etc.

·The identifying initials and number of each exhibit referred to in the statement. For example, if it is the witness’s first statement and it refers to three exhibits, these should be referred to as “ABC1” to “ABC3”. In a subsequent witness statement in the same proceedings, further exhibits would start at “ABC4”;

·The date the statement was made.

The exhibit sheet should be headed with the title of the proceedings. A centre-heading should state the exhibit number.

 

Each exhibit should be numbered & accompanied by a seperate sheet like this

 

On behalf of: Defendant

Witness: [Initials and surname]

Number: [1st] [2nd]

Exhibits: [“DEF1”]

Date:

IN THE XXX COUNTY COURT Claim No:

 

 

 

BETWEEN

[________]

Claimant

and

[________]

Defendant

 

EXHIBIT “DEF1”

This is the exhibit marked “DEF1” referred to in the [1st] witness statement of [D E Fern] dated the day of 200

 

[stone-broke]

Hi SB,

Looks a bit more suitable than others just disregard point 3 as no PPI.

 

Also point 2 states that i admit to a contract is that wise ?,should i not state alleged that a contract existed ?

 

I could pad it out as there has been so many requests for info and somewhere i need to add about the other information received not relating to my case.

Cutting it fine !!!!!

Ramjet

 

No! Don't admit to having a contract....you don't have a valid contract as the one they sent to you doesn't have your signature on. Just tailor what you have to suit your circumstances. Add in bits that you need to add but are not on the samples that caggers have sent to you. I'm sure you can cut and paste bits from all samples to get a suitable WS.

Just try not to panic (easier said than done; I know). You'll get there, I'm sure. I have this all to come myself!!! Arrrgh!

Good luck with it all and let me know how you get on.

SB

[ramjet]

Well passed my exam today so now done something like this.

Will deliver to court tomorrow,I have found this very hard to do and whether it is correct or not ,it has to go tomorrow.

 

Foolishgirl & SB ,many thanks for your help.

 

Text formatting all went wrong and i have no idea how to sort !!,gone to bed !!!! had enough.

Edited June 22, 2010 by ramjet

[stone-broke]

Ram.......just reading it through! I didn't think your POC were vague, so you might have to leave that bit out! I will continue to read and get back to you,,,,,,,,SB