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    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
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Charged twice for parking fine in Lambeth


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Here's my story, if anyone can offer any help would be much appreciated.

 

I got a parking ticket back in December last year from Lambeth council (I had parked my car overnight at my sister's, and parking was free overnight but after 8AM they started charging - I got to my car at about 5 minutes past).

 

I was a bit strapped for cash then, so my sister said she'd pay it for me, all was good I thought. But then I got a reminder notice, saying that as I hadn't paid, I now owed Lambeth £120. I presumed that my sister forgot to pay for it, so I immediately phoned them up and paid the £120 they were asking.

 

After this, I spoke to my sister, and she said she had in fact paid for it, and showed me her payment confirmation. So effectively, we had paid the fine twice, and Lambeth now owed me that £120 back.

 

Trying to get this £120 back off them has proved to be a total nightmare.

 

As soon as I realised I'd overpaid, I wrote to them, and got no response. I then phoned them up, and eventually after a few phone calls they confirmed to me that they had received my letter. By now it's early March. On the phone, I was told it would take 4-5 weeks to process my letter.

 

After yet another follow up phone call, I eventually got a written response from them on 20th April. No apology, we were wrong etc, instead it simply stated

 

Thank you for your letter regarding the above penalty charge.

 

Please be advised that a refund for the amount of £120 has been processed and should be with you within 28 days.

So I finally had written confirmation that I was owed the £120 back. BUT I am still waiting for this refund.

 

Can anyone suggest how I can take this further? I paid the £120 to them back in January, it's now October and I'm still waiting for a refund. Just recently, I spoke to them on the phone to follow this up, and was told that they would look into it, but again I've heard nothing back and feel utterly fobbed off.

 

How should I take it from here? I've effectively been out of pocket for this amount for nearly a year. Can I start charging them interest? I've found dealing with Lambeth directly totally futile, so can anyone recommend any third parties I can take this too? An ombudsmen of some sort? Really I just want my money back, but I'm appalled they can do this and would be keen to take it further

 

Thanks

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I had a similar problem with Lambeth , I paid twice for pay by phone parking due to a glitch in the recorded reply system , I wrote on 3 occasions recorded delivery , without success , so I used the HMCS online small claims procedure , they ignored the action , judgment ec right up to the point where I made the threat of warrant of execution (Bailiffs) and they finally paid up ,

So….. you are in for a saga , but don’t give up

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

Edited by sparkeyrjp
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I had a similar problem with Lambeth , I paid twice for pay by phone parking due to a glitch in the recorded reply system , I wrote on 3 occasions recorded delivery , without success , so I used the HMCS online small claims procedure , they ignored the action , judgment ec right up to the point where I made the threat of warrant of execution (Bailiffs) and they finally paid up ,

So….. you are in for a saga , but don’t give up

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

 

This is most useful, thanks very much.

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If you paid by card, it should be refunded back to the card. Contact the card issuer.

 

I paid by debit card, does this still apply? Could I just phone them up to ask for it back? It was back in January I paid

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK I went through the online small claims procedure, and have got a notification that the claim was issued last week.

According to the paperwork, they have until 22nd November to reply.

 

Assuming I hear nothing from Lambeth between now and the 22nd based on their ignoring everything until now, what would be my next step after this? And in what sort of timeframe is a judgement made?

 

Sparkeyrjp, how long did you wait before issuing a warrant of execution?

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OK I went through the online small claims procedure, and have got a notification that the claim was issued last week.

According to the paperwork, they have until 22nd November to reply.

 

Assuming I hear nothing from Lambeth between now and the 22nd based on their ignoring everything until now, what would be my next step after this? And in what sort of timeframe is a judgement made?

 

Sparkeyrjp, how long did you wait before issuing a warrant of execution?

 

The time frame ( from memory ) is given in pop up help menu’s so after the 22nd there is a set delay to take in account a defence etc being lodged on the last day of the action .

If either a defence of the action or payment to you is not made , the next step is for you to request a "judgement in default" where the defendant HAS to settle your claim

After a set period of time, likely 14 days again , if the claim is still not settled you then request a "Warrant of Execution " , I seem to remember there is a fee for this ,but the fee will be added to total debt .

THEN you can send in the bailiffs :D

Throughout the procedure there are help links , which are simple to follow , after all I managed ;)

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The time frame ( from memory ) is given in pop up help menu’s so after the 22nd there is a set delay to take in account a defence etc being lodged on the last day of the action .

If either a defence of the action or payment to you is not made , the next step is for you to request a "judgement in default" where the defendant HAS to settle your claim

After a set period of time, likely 14 days again , if the claim is still not settled you then request a "Warrant of Execution " , I seem to remember there is a fee for this ,but the fee will be added to total debt .

THEN you can send in the bailiffs :D

Throughout the procedure there are help links , which are simple to follow , after all I managed ;)

 

Very useful again, thanks! Inevitably I think it will get as far as the Warrant of Execution, but I'll see if by some miracle they respond to the action in the next couple of weeks... I'll update this with my progress

 

I your dreams , If they dont respond to County Court claims , what chance a formal complaint

 

Agreed, the letters I've sent have been formal and complaining enough, and it seems they don't have a procedure in place for cases like this at all, judging by the lack of response I've had so far.

 

 

Did you also add on the interest in your claim from the date of the overpayment?

 

Yes I made sure I added that to claim, it didn't amount to much but every little helps I guess

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Agreed, the letters I've sent have been formal and complaining enough, and it seems they don't have a procedure in place for cases like this at all, judging by the lack of response I've had so far.

Might be worth writing to the CEO of the council and maybe a councillor, or the Mayor and also the local government minister (secretary of state: Rt Hon(?) John Denham)

 

You can always follow-up with a complaint to Local Government Ombudsman.

 

However as you've waited this long you might be best to wait and see - remember interest is accruing while they delay. (Ker-ching :-))

 

A nasty thought occurs you might want to complain to the Audit Office as this amounts (IMO) to misuse of public funds. They've had your letter and a chance to sort this out before it went to court. It's ended up costing the Council Taxpayers more than it should.

Edited by pin1onu
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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

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I think it is absurd going through small claims, the mayor, the ombudsman etc.

 

Look - the council has a formal complaints process. Use it.

 

Here, from their own website: Stage 2: What should I do if I am not happy with the manager's reply?

 

If you remain dissatisfied you can contact your Departmental Complaint Officer to request that your complaint is reviewed by a Senior Manager. They will acknowledge your Stage 2 complaint within 3 working days, and a response will be sent within 15 working days.

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Jamberson,

 

The OP has already engaged with the "process" and been ignored hence taking to court. The councils are quick enough to get you into court when you owe them money. I'd say sauce for the goose applies here.

 

If I lived in the area I'd want to know why incompetence or brinksmanship at the expense of the public purse is being allowed to happen by the council. If that means calling the attention of higher powers to this behavior then I'd say that persuing this line is in the public interest.

Edited by pin1onu

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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

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Jamberson,

 

The OP has already engaged with the "process" and been ignored hence taking to court. The councils are quick enough to get you into court when you owe them money. I'd say sauce for the goose applies here.

 

If I lived in the area I'd want to know why incompetence or brinksmanship at the expense of the public purse is being allowed to happen by the council. If that means calling the attention of higher powers to this behavior then I'd say that persuing this line is in the public interest.

 

I agree , In my action ALL written requests were ignored , It is time to give this council a taste of their own medicine

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OK then.

 

From what's written above, the formal complaints process has never been pursued. Take it from someone who worked inside a Council - a formal complaint is treated seriously, escalated to a senior manager, logged independently and internally chased up, and the whole process externally audited for standards. It is very effective and far removed from any old letter or phone call.

 

However I will but out now - not my battle to fight.

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  • 3 weeks later...
OK then.

 

From what's written above, the formal complaints process has never been pursued. Take it from someone who worked inside a Council - a formal complaint is treated seriously, escalated to a senior manager, logged independently and internally chased up, and the whole process externally audited for standards. It is very effective and far removed from any old letter or phone call.

 

However I will but out now - not my battle to fight.

 

Just to re-iterate what sparkeyrjp and pin1onu have said, I have no doubt that if I had followed any different procedure, I would have had the same lack of response. It wasn't "any old letter" I wrote, I laid out in no uncertain terms how I was owed this charge back - and to a certain extent it worked because Lambeth eventually acknowledged in writing that I was owed back this charge. The problem came when it came to them actually refunding me.

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Update: Lambeth didn't respond to the Claim, so after the necessary time it's been escalated to a judgement which was accepted in my favour by the Court. They now have 14 or so days left to respond before a Warrant can be issued... not holding my breath

 

Interest over the period since my initial claim only amounted to about £1.10 , but I made sure I added it on!

 

Really just hoping this is settled by the end of the year now, it will be a full year since the ticket was originally issued in a month or so.

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I had a problem with that once at Stockwell. I wanted to get to Brixton and the only person I could find to ask was the one and only Jim Davidson, no less. He said... You need to take distrain. Which I did. Got me there on time in the end.:D

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