parking offence -what is a goods vehicle

[trebor99]

I parked my car ( an ordinary saloon not a van) in a goods vehicle bay while delivering stock to a customer. i got a ticket,appealed to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service and lost.They said that my car is not a goods vehicle because it is not "a vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods or burden of any description" which is the definition in the Act . My argument is that it is because it has a boot the sole purpose of which is to carry goods and secondly that it is completely unfair that I should be fined when I would not have been if I had had a van.

I think it is impossible to appeal against a decision of the Appeals Service.

Has anyone any ideas or comments?

[trebor99]

Thanks for the reply but I think you're wrong in law as my story shows. If you haven't been caught so far great but watch out.

[cerberusalert]

Thread moved parking forum

[JimmySpangle]

Your private car is not a godds vehicle so they are correct. The fact that you carry goods is irrelevant.

 

What may be relavent is whether this ticket was on private property or not. If it is a council issued 'penalty charge notice' it is valid. If it is a privately issued 'PARKING charge notice' it is a worthless piece of paper and does not need to be paid.

[green_and_mean]

“goods vehicle” is defined in the RTA 1988 and PATAS is correct you have a car not a 'goods vehicle'. Mini cabs carry fare paying passengers but cannot park on Taxi ranks, Coaches carry 50+ people but cannot stop on Bus Stops and cars carrying goods cannot park in a 'goods vehicle bay' you may not think its fair but thats the law.

[lamma]

Your car has a boot ? Thats the bit for carrying 'goods'. It is private light goods. See Jane Packer Flowers and Sprake V Tester which said “It means a loading or unloading for some commercial purpose, and I think there is a reason why it is not limited to goods vehicles. I can understand a private motor-car coming along with a load of things inside it; it might be a piece or two of furniture, it might be half a dozen pictures to be reframed or cleaned, I would not even exclude a heavy laundry basket. There may be many cases in which the motor-car would be used for something which it would not be reasonable for anybody to carry in his hand; and therefore it might be said persons putting such things into or out of the car were loading or unloading within the terms of this order.” Pictures of the signs would help.

[green_and_mean]

Your car has a boot ? Thats the bit for carrying 'goods'. It is private light goods. See Jane Packer Flowers and Sprake V Tester which said “It means a loading or unloading for some commercial purpose, and I think there is a reason why it is not limited to goods vehicles. I can understand a private motor-car coming along with a load of things inside it; it might be a piece or two of furniture, it might be half a dozen pictures to be reframed or cleaned, I would not even exclude a heavy laundry basket. There may be many cases in which the motor-car would be used for something which it would not be reasonable for anybody to carry in his hand; and therefore it might be said persons putting such things into or out of the car were loading or unloading within the terms of this order.” Pictures of the signs would help.

 

The taxation class you refer to is private/light goods NOT private light goods. Both private passenger vehicles and light goods fall into the same class a single seat sports car without a boot could be taxed PLG but that would not make it a goods vehicle by any stretch of the imagination. Your other argument is totally pointless since it was not disputed he was loading he got a ticket because he wasn't in a 'goods vehicle'.

[lamma]

“It means a loading or unloading for some commercial purpose, and I think there is a reason why it is not limited to goods vehicles. I can understand a private motor-car coming along with a load of things inside it; it might be a piece or two of furniture, it might be half a dozen pictures to be reframed or cleaned, I would not even exclude a heavy laundry basket. There may be many cases in which the motor-car would be used for something which it would not be reasonable for anybody to carry in his hand; and therefore it might be said persons putting such things into or out of the car were loading or unloading within the terms of this order.” Pictures of the signs would help. It is also worth checking out the TRO - many are flawed or do not tally with the PCNs dished out.

[middenmess]

If you have insured the vehicle with a commercial vehicle insurance policy then you might have a case.

 

If however you just have 'ordinary' car insurance then that would probably be invalidated if you had been involved in an accident when delivering your 'stock'

[JimmySpangle]

“It means a loading or unloading for some commercial purpose, and I think there is a reason why it is not limited to goods vehicles. I can understand a private motor-car coming along with a load of things inside it; it might be a piece or two of furniture, it might be half a dozen pictures to be reframed or cleaned, I would not even exclude a heavy laundry basket. There may be many cases in which the motor-car would be used for something which it would not be reasonable for anybody to carry in his hand; and therefore it might be said persons putting such things into or out of the car were loading or unloading within the terms of this order.” Pictures of the signs would help. It is also worth checking out the TRO - many are flawed or do not tally with the PCNs dished out.

 

I think you are confusing putting large and heavy objects in a small car with carrying goods in a goods vehicle.

 

I often carry 7 people in my car, yet I cannot use the bus lane. I cannot use a motorcycle on a cycle path, even though it is a cycle with a motor. I can play football, but they won't let me on the wembley pitch.

 

If the bay says 'goods vehicles only' as the OP says, then that means goods vehicles only - not any vehicle that happens to be loading some goods.

 

As Green & Mean points out correctly, PLG taxation class is the same cost to private vehicle and light goods vehicles. It does not turn your private car into a light goods vehicle.

[lamma]

read Jane Packer Flowers and Sprake V Tester. The OP should get the TRO, signs only indicate prohibitions irs the Traffic Order that makes them - or not...

[trebor99]

Interesting comments. My thinking is this.

Some vehicles don't have a boot say a bike or even a Smart car. They can't be goods vehicles. But a vehicle which has a boot is built in that way to enable it to carry goods.It is therefore a "vehicle constructed for the carriage of goods" as defined by the Act. The Act doesn't say the main purpose of the vehicle has to be the carriage of goods.

i agree with the comment that if I had commercial vehicle insurance it would help my case but I don't -unfortunately for this case

If I had parked a van instead of a car there I would not have had a problem That is what is so unfair.

The offence was on the public highway

Why does Jimmy Spangle say my car was not a "goods vehicle"? Is that your opinion or a statement of fact?

[lamma]

Even postal packets can be goods and goods do not have to be commercial, merely goods. It will turn on the TRO. Read Jane Packer Flowers. http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LOADADJ.pdf

Edited October 19, 2009 by lamma

[trebor99]

Thanks Lamma but the link doesn't work for me

[lamma]

Fixed. sorry.

[green_and_mean]

Even postal packets can be goods and goods do not have to be commercial, merely goods. It will turn on the TRO. Read Jane Packer Flowers. http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LOADADJ.pdf

 

All very well but you are still arguing a totally pointless argument it does not matter if you have 'goods' in your car or in a basket on the front of a pushbike it does still not make either a goods vehicle. The cases you are quoting are to deal with loading not the type of vehicle.

[trebor99]

yes green_and _mean you're right. I think Lamma is trying to be helpful but the cases aren't. I am going to apply for a review on the grounds that my car was a goods vehicle because it is a vehicle built with a boot to enable it to carry goods so how can it not be a goods vehicle as defined by the Act.Problem is that if my car is a goods vehicle then everyone's is and it could open the floodgates.

[lamma]

It will turn on the TRO. the signs only indicate prohibitions it is the order that makes them. or did I mention this already ?

[direct2000]

All very well but you are still arguing a totally pointless argument it does not matter if you have 'goods' in your car or in a basket on the front of a pushbike it does still not make either a goods vehicle. The cases you are quoting are to deal with loading not the type of vehicle.

 

Definition of goods vehicle (please see "your vehicle category" in your V5C Registration Certificate):

Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods.

 

Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes.

Category N2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3,5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.

Category N3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/definition-of-vehicle-categories.asp

[direct2000]

All very well but you are still arguing a totally pointless argument it does not matter if you have 'goods' in your car or in a basket on the front of a pushbike it does still not make either a goods vehicle. The cases you are quoting are to deal with loading not the type of vehicle.

 

Definition of goods vehicle (please see "your vehicle category is possibly - M,[by the way motor bike has no category]" in your V5C Registration Certificate):

Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods.

 

Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes.

Category N2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3,5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.

Category N3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/definition-of-vehicle-categories.asp

[direct2000]

All very well but you are still arguing a totally pointless argument it does not matter if you have 'goods' in your car or in a basket on the front of a pushbike it does still not make either a goods vehicle. The cases you are quoting are to deal with loading not the type of vehicle.

 

Definition of goods vehicle (please see "your vehicle category is M, while a motor bike has no category" in your V5C Registration Certificate):

Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods.

 

Category N1: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass not exceeding 3,5 tonnes.

Category N2: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 3,5 tonnes but not exceeding 12 tonnes.

Category N3: Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and having a maximum mass exceeding 12 tonnes.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/definition-of-vehicle-categories.asp

[Meekyou]

Do you have a delivery note / job sheet - which shows the name of your company, the items being delivered, the delivery address and has it been signed by the customer to confirm receipt of goods delivered???

 

Do you have business use on the insurance (not commercial vehicle insurance) for the vehicle?

[direct2000]

http://parkitnyc.com/parking-nyc/nyc-parking-garages/commercial-vehicle-parking-nyc/

 

WHAT IS A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE

 

For the purposes of parking, standing and stopping, a commercial vehicle is defined as a vehicle that:

- bears commercial plates

- is permanently altered by having all seats and seat fittings (except the front seats) removed to create a large space for transporting or moving furniture, large boxes, or anything else that requires that much space. Vehicles that are designed with a passenger cab and a cargo area separated by a partition are not included in this rule, since the seating capacity within the cab is not considered in determining whether the vehicle is properly altered.

- displays the registrant’s name and address on both sides of the vehicle, in characters at least three inches high, in a color contrasting with the color of the vehicle, and placed approximately midway vertically on doors or side panels.

For the purposes other than parking, stopping and standing rules, a vehicle that meets the above criteria is considered a commercial vehicle.

 

(Vehicles from other states or countries bearing commercial or equivalent registration plates from other states or countries are not considered trucks or commercial vehicles unless they meet the above criteria.)

========================

Loading bays and loading areas

http://www.devon.gov.uk/dft-sign-and-line-leaflet.pdf

The bays may be reserved for use by goods vehicles (where indicated on signs) or may be used by all vehicles, e.g. outside shops where heavy purchases have to be carried to a car.

However, these bays should not be used prior to making the purchase, but only for collection of pre-paid items when they are too large or heavy to carry to where the car is parked. Once loading is complete, the vehicle must leave the bay.

[honeybee13]

That first website is New York City, Direct.

 

HB

[direct2000]

I know but it is better than nothing. For example, I use for work a commercial motor bike as a car parts delivery driver and my manager said that

I cannot use loading bays because the bike is not a commercial car (lorry) and I have no trolley (white on blue symbol). As an alternative he suggested to use the shops/garages private parking places or to park on the pavement.

I am sure that it is prohibited to drive and park on the pavement (unless it is allowed by signs) and I can use loading bays during the time shown because:

All commercial deliveries and collections (including multi-drop and couriers) are included in the exemption. Reasonable time is allowed for the checking of paperwork too – however, as soon as the delivery has finished the vehicle must be moved. Loading includes the movement of goods to and from premises, checks on the goods delivered and paperwork. Loading and unloading by commercial vehicles is permitted in designated loading bays – normally for a maximum of 20 minutes. This bike, Honda CBF125 is still vehicle despite of lack of vehicle category in V5C Certificate. (Automotive Engineering) a road vehicle driven by a motor or engine, esp (electronic stability programme) an internal-combustion engine.

How can I prove that the manager is wrong but I am right? I am on probation period now so do not have to discuss too much with him.