Is this Theft or Fraud? Drakes; ****WON****

[Stopthethieves]

Have you told the bank. Have you told them about the fradulent transactions on your account?

 

To me it is clearly theft without your permission. If you had £370 on you personally and gave them £50 and they said give us another £320 then proceeded to ruffle through your pockets without your permission and found £320 and took it, would this not be theft?

 

Contact the bank. Find out the law and kick up a huge fuss, the police are here to uphold the law.

 

Regards

[lookinforinfo]

The bank take the same line as the Police. As I owe the bailiffs money, there is

nothing they can do. Birds of a feather.....

[falcon185]

Hi Lookin,

as far as the law goes, unless you have an agreed arrangement for the money to be taken from your account by the Bailiffs or anyone else for that matter it is Theft. Did you get the police officers name and/or number? I would strongly suggest that you go back to the Police station and make a formal complaint against the officer/s for neglect of duty. It does NOT matter whether they are Bailiffs and you owe them money, if you have not agreed or signed an agreement for a monthly charge to be debited by them from your account then they have committed a criminal offence. Should the Police not treat it as such I would certainly make waves at the police station even insisting on seeing the Area commander if necessary and or write to him. Let us know how things go? I'd be interested to see how they decide to investigate this matter.

The other thing I would do is go into your Bank nd speak to the Manager, advise him/her that you believe that your account has been compromised as unauthorised transactions have been taking place on your account and you wish them to open another account in your name closing the original one. Once the account is closed there is no way they can obtain any funds without your express permission. I would alsdo make sure you gave this in the form of a letter handed in person to the manager. ( dont forget to keep a copy) ;-)

[Recycler]

couldnt it be both - obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception contrary to 1968 theft act....?

 

worth putting it in writing to your local superintendant fao the fraud squad?

[falcon185]

Done a bit of Googling on the Theft Amaendment act 1996 "obtaining

a money transfer by deception". Heres Part of:

 

"Obtaining a money transfer by deception. 15A. - (1) A person is guilty of an offence if by any deception he dishonestly obtains a money transfer for himself or another.

(2) A money transfer occurs when-

• (a) a debit is made to one account,

• (b) a credit is made to another, and

• © the credit results from the debit or the debit results from the credit.

Goes on a bit more but its all in there ;-)

[Stopthethieves]

I would definitely go back to the bank, put it in writing with proof, speak to the manager. They are a party to a fradulent transaction since you did not authorise it.

 

As for the police, not up with the law but this seems very obviously theft. Ask the police which laws allow bailiffs to thieve money???

 

Regards

 

P.S. Falco, just read your post and I agree.

[falcon185]

Although you gave them permission to debit your account of £50:00 there is no signed agreement or DD set up by you in order to pay off the outstanding, they have NO authority as Bailiffs to remove money from ANYONES account without the account holders agreement ( signed I would say ) any subsequent transactions made by them using your Debit card details woyuld be a criminal offence, I would also suggest making an official complaint against the Bailiffs to their governing body I've seen the address on other trhreads but cant remember it, maybe someone else can help with it??

[falcon185]

Just out of interest, which County Police force are you dealing with here?

[Stopthethieves]

Does anyone know of any police who use this site?

 

Surely if you demand the police to record it, they must unless they can show for definite that no offence has taken place.

 

I would definitely go to the bank, also point out to them if they fail to act and it is shown otherwise that they may be commiting a criminal offence. (Seek clarification though, SOMEONE ON HERE MUST KNOW THE FACTS).

 

 

How long was there between the £50 transaction and the latest???

 

Regards

[lookinforinfo]

Thanks for your input guys. However both my bank and the Police say that because I owe them the money, it is not theft or fraud. The bailiffs are only taking what they are owed-apparently it is "their" money.

The Police say it is a civil matter and that I should talk to Citizens Advice, but it is

definitely not theft.

[falcon185]

Hi again Lookin

although this may be a civil debt it appears to have entered the realms of criminallity. ONLY the authorised account holder may set up a D.D Standing Order or Debit card payment from their account. Although money is owed an agreement should have been saught by the DCA with you in relation to any FURTHER payment being taken from your account. They cannot just use previous details given by an account holder to extract money from a Bank account without your agreement. I would as a matter of urgency go to the Bank as soon as they open tomorrow with a written letter explaining the circumstances of unauthorized withdrawals from your account, give it to the manager and ask that a NEW account be opened and close the existing one. At least then they cannot gain access to your new account. I know its a pain in the rear having to wait for a new Debit card etc but at least it will stop them. I would then go to CAB explain whats been going on then hopefully back to the Police Stn to make an official complaint. The DCA are acting above the Law and should be brought to task over it. Civil debt can escelate into a crime if proper procedures are not adhered to. As for it being "their money" as the nice officer told you, it is not in an account that they hold so it cannot be classed as THEIR money until you agree to part with it and make a payment into THEIR account!

[falcon185]

Just out of interest what was the debt for?? Are the DCA acting on behalf of someone else? If they are it may be worth contacting the actual people who you owed the money to initially and find out if they have any knowledge of the DCA they are employing are using unlawful means to collect the money

[rambo]

I cannot believe the line the police are taking on this, its a bloody disgrace!!.

I had a guy by a land rover off me via ebay, he sent me a cheque and I paid it into my bank, the bank spotted that it was forged and cancelled it. When I went to the police to report it, they said that because the bank had cancelled the cheque no crime had been commited!!. I asked the police about attempted fraud, and they said that it does'nt exist. I am not anti police, but I cannot understand the way they act somtimes.

[falcon185]

Hi Rambo,

I would suggest that this was an attempt to obtain goods by deception?? Personally I would write to the bank requesting a written response for the reason they cancelled the cheque. Once they write back stating that they believed it to be a forged cheque you also have the added offence of uttering a forged instrument. Bet the Police wont like that when you land it on them lol ;-)

[Guest ian cognito]

have you looked through here?

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf

Glad I read this thread as Vodafone have set them on me for a disputed account - I've threatened to go to the OFT for their harrassment of me while the account is in dispute, I'm going to keep an eye on this one. Good luck with it.

[falcon185]

Just briefly looked through it Jan, unfortunately, having read many threads it appears the OFT have no teeth, backbone or any desire to take complaints seriously. It also doesnt appear to have anything in relation to taking payments without authority although I feel this could be classed as unfair and bad practice on the DCA's behalf.

[Stopthethieves]

This is blatant theft, anyone got a definition of THEFT???

 

It is not THEIR money, it doesn't suprise me the bank take this line. You MUST perservere!!!

 

As for the police, kick up a fuss.... do you know any police personally, can they not report it as a crime for you?

 

Regards

[Guest ian cognito]

I noticed it didn't have anything on too, still got to be worth complaining to everyone you can find on this, I know a couple of police officers, I'll ask them to dig for you.

 

I really can't belive this one!!!

[Guest ian cognito]

surely this covers it

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act

1974 to ensure that licences are only given and retained by those who are fit to

hold them. In considering fitness the OFT must take into account any

circumstances which appear to be relevant. In particular we will consider any

evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or associates

have:

• committed offences involving fraud, or other dishonesty or violence

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer

legislation

• practised discrimination in connection with their business

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or

otherwise unfair or improper (whether lawful or not).

Where the OFT has evidence we can take action to refuse or revoke the credit

licences of those concerned.

[falcon185]

The definition of theft as I recall is where a person steals or attempts to steal e anything belonging to another with the intention of permenantly depriving them of it? or words to that effect!

[falcon185]

surely this covers it

 

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act

 

1974 to ensure that licences are only given and retained by those who are fit to

hold them. In considering fitness the OFT must take into account any

circumstances which appear to be relevant. In particular we will consider any

evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or associates

have:

 

•

committed offences involving fraud, or other dishonesty or violence

 

•

failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer

legislation

 

•

practised discrimination in connection with their business

 

•

engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or

otherwise unfair or improper (whether lawful or not).

Where the OFT has evidence we can take action to refuse or revoke the credit

licences of those concerned.

 

I see where youre heading with this Jan but unfortunately the Police are the stumbling block in this case, they wont accept it as a reported crime, which they are duty bound to do and investigate

[Rich44]

What I want to know is what exactly do the police do these days apart from hide behind bushes with radar guns?

 

sorry if there are any good officers in here but EVERY instant when I have called the police they have refused to get involved despite the fact crimes have been committed INCLUDING drug dealing!!!!

 

I think the police portion of the council tax is a load of rubbish and represents poor value for money, if I thought it would do any good i'd refuse to pay it!

 

Here are some scenarios you might like to hit the police with:

 

a) Bailiff knocks on your door and you ignore him but unknown to you you have dropped your wallet by the front door - he picks it up and uses the cards within to take all your money - this is apparently not theft either then?

 

b) Bailiff knocks and gets no reply, he then sees your wallet on the window near the door and smashes a window and nicks it same result as above and your word against his that he broke in.

 

c) Bailiff goes through your rubbish and gets your bank records and uses that to steal your money

 

d) Bailiff sees post hanging out your front door nicks it and lo your new bank card is there - takes your money again (I know some cards need activating but not all)

 

If the money in your bank account "is theirs" then surely they can get at it legally very easily then? no surely not

 

If they need a court to get at your bank account money then surely that means it''s your money until proven otherwise. also whats to stop them keep adding charges and every month hit your account for another £££'s?

 

It's total rubbish I would go back down that police station and demand to see the duty inspector make a VERY harsh complaint with the way you and your complaint have been dealt with and the stress and upset it has caused, then I would write to both YOUR MP and the home secretary bitterly complaining about the police and then follow that up with a complaint here

 

Independent Police Complaints Commission Home Page

 

That will get their attention, why is it that unless joe public can show their understanding of the law the police seem to be able to say no we dont do that anymore, no thats not a crime etc etc etc??

[falcon185]

Very true Rich, my point exactly, if your money is in your account how can it be theirs?? I believe the only way to get money from youre account is by way of a court order, although a ccj may be given against you for the debt that in no way implies that your bank account can be plundered.

[lookinforinfo]

Decided to write the Police and my bank off as wastes of space. I am claiming

almost £500 from Drakes through the Small Claims. Perhaps that will get the result

I want.

[storm]

Hate to throw a spanner in the works guys but I get the feeling this may not be illegal, unethical yes

 

Do you remember last year there was all the outcry about the Inland Revenue claiming overpayments for working tax credits back, by just dipping in to people's bank accounts and just taking the full amount out without any warning

 

Obviously people were upset because it caused them hardship suddenly having their accounts emptied etc

 

Have to say though, there was never any suggestion this practice was illegal as it was the Inland Revenue's money, it was just the way they went about it