Cahoot - Debt Managers Ltd- Help please!

[scottyrob]

Ive been trying to help my girlfriend out of a debt situation she had dating back to 2004 - prior to me knowing her.

 

Ive established she took out a £4K loan with Cahoot in 2004.

Since then ive calculated she had repaid £3400 and in Dec 2007 called Cahoot to ask how much was outstanding.

 

She was advised there was still approx £4K outstanding and told this was because of payment protection that the debt was so high (which she knew nothing about ).

 

She apparently chased them for several months about it, with no success then in an attempt to get them to send copies, stopped making payments. She then moved house and "forgot all about it" - not very clever , I know to ignore the debt !

Since then...

11/5/09 - letter received from Debt Managers Ltd arrived demanding £4792.

14/5/09 - I got involved and after reading this website sent off a letter to Debt Managers asking for evidence of liability for the debt.

18/5/09 - Debt Managers advise they are arranging for copy papers

 

28/9/09 - copy of "credit agrement" received showing a flexible loan ,signature and date but no details of the amount borrowed or repaid.

 

Interestingly, it clearly shows that my girlfriend had NOT requested Payment Protection - the box is clearly not ticked.

 

Admittedly ignoring the debt was not the best course of action, but does anyone have any suggestions about what our next steps should be ?

[Reader]

I would advise claiming back the ppi with the added 8% interest for starters. If it clearly shows that PPI was not requested you should have a solid argument.

[vint1954]

Ive been trying to help my girlfriend out of a debt situation she had dating back to 2004 - prior to me knowing her.

 

Ive established she took out a £4K loan with Cahoot in 2004.

Since then ive calculated she had repaid £3400 and in Dec 2007 called Cahoot to ask how much was outstanding.

 

She was advised there was still approx £4K outstanding and told this was because of payment protection that the debt was so high (which she knew nothing about ).

 

She apparently chased them for several months about it, with no success then in an attempt to get them to send copies, stopped making payments. She then moved house and "forgot all about it" - not very clever , I know to ignore the debt !

Since then...

11/5/09 - letter received from Debt Managers Ltd arrived demanding £4792.

14/5/09 - I got involved and after reading this website sent off a letter to Debt Managers asking for evidence of liability for the debt.

18/5/09 - Debt Managers advise they are arranging for copy papers

 

28/9/09 - copy of "credit agrement" received showing a flexible loan ,signature and date but no details of the amount borrowed or repaid.

 

Interestingly, it clearly shows that my girlfriend had NOT requested Payment Protection - the box is clearly not ticked.

 

Admittedly ignoring the debt was not the best course of action, but does anyone have any suggestions about what our next steps should be ?

Can you post a copy of the agreement, minus personal details.

 

Depending on what you are trying to acheive, will shape your next moves.

 

If you are seeking to reduce the debt, an unenforcable agreement is a great bargining tool, plus the missold PPI.

 

If you are seeking to challenge the agreement, then different letters will need to be sent, but it would be helpful if we could have signt of the agreement.

 

In the agreements, should be the prescribed terms. These have to be within the signature document, one page as it were. Basically these are:

 

The amount of credit.

 

The amount of interest expressed as an APR

 

The repayment schedule.

 

If there is PPI, then this becomes a multiple agreement and those terms need to be stated as well, within the signature document.

[summer30]

Because its a flexible loan the initial borrowed amount doesnt have to be on the agreement does it?

 

But obviously has to state interest, repayments etc I did query this at some point and was told it was fine not to have an amount on it. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

[scottyrob]

Thanks for your reply

 

Who would i do this with though ? Debit Managers Ltd wont be in a position to discuss the rights and wrongs of the payment protection, or will they ? - given my girlfriend stopped making payments, will Cahoot have washed their hands with the debt ?

 

I'm tempted to write back on her behalf to Debt Managers Ltd asking them for a breakdown of the loan, repayments and charges but i'm not sure if it would be ok to do this ?

 

Some of the other threads seem to imply that by responding about the debt itself , would indicate some sort of ownership for the debt, which she disputes because she never asked for/agreed to the payment protection.

 

Any help would be appreciated . girlfriends getting stressed and upset about the tone of the letters . Wording on the letter seems to indicate the next step may be a visit from one of their "collectors" calling at her house.

 

Thanks for reading this.

[vint1954]

Because its a flexible loan the initial borrowed amount doesnt have to be on the agreement does it?

 

But obviously has to state interest, repayments etc I did query this at some point and was told it was fine not to have an amount on it. Please correct me if I am wrong though.

Thats possible summer, I missed the bit about flexible loan. They would still have to reference the credit limit or how it was to be determined. I would think an upper limit would need to be advised.

[vint1954]

Thanks for your reply

 

Who would i do this with though ? Debit Managers Ltd wont be in a position to discuss the rights and wrongs of the payment protection, or will they ? - given my girlfriend stopped making payments, will Cahoot have washed their hands with the debt ?

 

I'm tempted to write back on her behalf to Debt Managers Ltd asking them for a breakdown of the loan, repayments and charges but i'm not sure if it would be ok to do this ?

 

Some of the other threads seem to imply that by responding about the debt itself , would indicate some sort of ownership for the debt, which she disputes because she never asked for/agreed to the payment protection.

 

Any help would be appreciated . girlfriends getting stressed and upset about the tone of the letters . Wording on the letter seems to indicate the next step may be a visit from one of their "collectors" calling at her house.

 

Thanks for reading this.

No, dont worry, the letters are worded in a specific way.

 

If you are looking to challenge the loan, as presumably defaults have already been registered, and you are sure that the prescribed terms are not on the document, then maybe this is a way to go.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account. No debt to your organisation is acknowledged.

Further to my request under the consumer credit act 1974, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 77, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, supplying only an agreement devoid of all prescribed terms, which cannot be linked to any agreement which you claim that I have signed. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me, for pre 2007 agreements. As you will be further aware, an agreement is not executed, until signed by both parties, so the document that you have supplied, being a reconstruction, cannot be a True Copy of an Executed Agreement.

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are:

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

What is a true copy:

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

 

 

 

Have a read through and edit accordingly.

[scottyrob]

thanks every one for their replies...Unfortunately i dont know how to scan the document or i'd put it on.

 

I've had a closer look tho at the document and a lot of the info sems to be there :

 

- credit limit - "we will tell you from time to time what your flexible limit is"

 

- signatures - both my girlfriend and a signator on behalf of cahoot have signed though the field below "substituted creditor" has not been signed

 

- interest rates & apr's - "the interest rates for withdrawals and balance transfers is a monthly rate of 0.5575%. The APR for withdrawals and balance transfers is 6.9% variable. The APR is calculated on an assumed credit limit of £100.00

- repaymnets - each month on or before the payment date you have chosen you must pay at least the minimum payment set out in your cahoot flexible loan statement. The minimum payment will be the greater of either

£50 or 1.75% of the flexible loan balance.

 

Payment protection : the section reads :

 

"HAVE PEACE OF MIND WITH CAHOOT PAYMENT PROTECTION"

We strongly recommend you to protect your loan repayments for a monthly fee of just 77p per £100 of your outsanding balance. Tick here (ONLY IF YOU HAVE NOT APPLIED ONLINE) for Cahoot payment protection.

 

Unfortunately i've pressed my girlfriend on this and she now seems to think its possible that she first applied for this loan on line. She 's adamant she didnt sign up for payment protection but i'm wondering if there could have been a default tab or something where they automatically iassume your taking it unless you opt out.

 

"You can find details of the full policy on page 17 in the terms and conditions booklet page"

 

Either way, would I be right to assume that if she has taken this loan out online, then its looking likely that she's going to be liable ?

 

only positive i can see is that from what you guys said earlier about multiple agreements if ppi exists - then surely above does not constitue defining the terms ?

 

To clarify my/our aim here - is not necessarily to challenge the debt itself but reduce it to the correct level without payment protection

 

thanks again for all your help folks - i'm not sure i'm going to be able to do much but your helping me understand the process much better.

[vint1954]

Hi,

 

If the prescribed terms are there, then the above letter is not appropriate.

 

You should however claim back the PPI. The terms should be within the signature document as it is a multiple agreement.

 

Have a look at this link and claim back the PPI.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171037-multiple-agreements-falling-within.html

[scottyrob]

thanks Vint1954, I'll do that .

 

Can i ask one more question - ho should i go about this ? ..I dont know how much of the debt relates to this - Is it in order to ask the debt company for a breakdown of the debt ? ..once i've got this write back on her behalf , asking for the refund of the ppi (with interest) ?

 

Can i do this with them or does she need to approach Cahoot even though the debts now with Debt Management ?

 

Thanks again for all your help.

[vint1954]

It is probably worth a Subject Access Request to Cahoot. This will cost you £10. The template letter is on the forum. You need to request all data held. This should give you all statements, giving a breakdown of PPI and charges made against the account. These can also be reclaimed, if unfair.

 

When you clain the PPI payments back, simply list them in a spreadsheet, look to see if interest has been added to the PPi payments and add that in as well. They should not add interest to premiums.

 

Then add 8% interest and that is your claim.

[scottyrob]

Thanks Vint1954, thats brilliant i found the letter so i'll get that sent off..

 

last questions promise...would you send the letter and £10 postal order to Cahoot themselves rather than Debt managers Ltd ? I was thinking i'd send it to Cahoot and just send a copy to Debt Managers to hopefully avoid Debt Managers chasing her ?

 

The address i have on the bottom of the credit agreement is an abbey national adddress, does that sound right ? ie

 

Data Controller (as suggested on the template)

Cahoot

Division of Abbey national PLC

Abbey National House

2 Triton Square

Regents Place

London

NW1 3AN

[mr.ton]

Do not worry about about Debt Managers, they have no legal powers - only a county court does & can simply be told to go away.

Refuse to answer security questions if they ever ring you.

[scottyrob]

hi there...sorry to bother you all again...

 

I sent off a subject access request to Cahoot copying in debt managers asking for details of data they hold on their systems. I advised my partners previous addresses however they have replied after approx 30 days saying :

 

"after locating your customer folder it appears that the address we have for you is different from the address on the letter that you sent us.

If you can login to your cahoot personal homepage and update your address details then send us your request again we will produce and send out the access request for you. if you are unsure of your login details please call us on 0844... and we will help you with this process.

 

Im not sure what to do for the best :

- partner told them her previous addresses in the letter asking for SAR

- theyve had a £10 postal order already and they want us to re-request

- theyve obviously passed debt onto debt managers so im not sure who to correspond with

- partner has no information on account numbers or logins

 

i'm happy to pay the debt for partner once they deduct ppi payments plus interest but i dont want my partner to in any want acknowledge the debt until i'm sure its ok to do so.

 

Anyone got any suggestions what our next steps should be ?

[scottyrob]

bump back up..hoping summer or Vint or anyone else ....can maybe tell us what to do next ...can we deal with Cahoot now its passed to Debt Managers ?