Phone stolen - £400 bill from unauthorised calls!!

[maniche77]

I had my phone stolen whilst on a night out and in the time it took for me to have the sim barred the thief ran up a £400 bill of international calls to Iraq!

 

The money (now stands at £483 due to VAT) is due on the 22nd September and at the moment it looks like I am paying it. Just wondered if anyone had any advice for me in getting the charges wiped off or reduced in some way?

 

Is it worth cancelling my direct debit and trying to negotiate and reach an agreement with O2?

 

I am not on a 18 or 24 month contract, I am on the O2 simplicity deal which is a rolling month-to-month contract so is it worth cancelling the contract???

 

I am unsure as to what to do, I don't want to pay these charges as they were not made by me and were unauthorised calls, I do have a police crime number if that helps.

 

Any help/advice from anyone is much appreciated.

[Human Writes]

If you can afford to let the payment go through do so, but tell 02 your paying under protest and you dispute your liability for the charges.

 

If you can't afford to let the payment clear then don't, but be aware that 02 may flag your late payment of the bill on your credit file.

 

Once you've decided which you wish to do your best bet is then to make a complaint, usually a CSR will tell you your liable, because you are from a contractural standpoint, however, if you dispute your liability and ask for them to escalate your complaint, you will eventually be able to speak to a manager who has the discretion/authourity to negotiate with you or waive the charges.

 

As long as you are logical, calm & reasonable when dealing with them, but persistent, you should make some headway in negotiating either a reduction in the amount they say is due or a waiver of all charges.

[maniche77]

Thank you for your advice Human Writes.

 

I can afford to let the payment go through, but if I do do that won't O2 regard the issue as closed as they have received the full payment and therefore not be interested in negotiating a reduction or full waiver of the charges?

 

Aren't I best trying to make a complaint and try and get the bill reduced or waived before the money is taken?

 

People I have spoken to say cancel the direct debit, then write to O2 explaining why you have done this, you are appalled at the way you've been treated and you won't pay the charges. Is it worth doing this or will it result in a default on my credit file and the issue dragging on for months?

[Human Writes]

Thank you for your advice Human Writes.

 

I can afford to let the payment go through, but if I do do that won't O2 regard the issue as closed as they have received the full payment and therefore not be interested in negotiating a reduction or full waiver of the charges?

 

Aren't I best trying to make a complaint and try and get the bill reduced or waived before the money is taken?

 

It depends on how much time you've got before payment is due to be taken, this may not be resolved immediatley.

 

If you give them notice (I'd recommend by letter or email) before payment is made that your paying under protest to avoid damage to your credit file then it's fine to allow the payment to go through and then dispute liability.

 

If you cancel the DD and this takes weeks or months to resolve then your going to end up with negative entries on your credit file, this is something that you really do want to avoid.

 

In the current financial climate lenders are very wary and if you want credit anytime soon then negative entries or defaults from O2 could have a significant affect on your ability to get credit for as long as six years. Even if you do resolve the issue regarding liability for disputed calls, you'd then potentially have to have a whole other argument with them to get them to update your credit file.

[maniche77]

The payment is due to be taken on 22nd September so 11 days.

 

I have been receiving conflicting advice from friends, one friend says if I cancel my direct debit I will be black listed on O2 but no other networks and would be able to get a contract with another network.

Another friend says I will be black listed on all networks for the rest of my life meaning I would be on PAYG for the rest of my life (maybe not such a bad thing) and that the bailiffs would be round my house if I do not pay the outstanding bill.

 

Can you tell me which is correct or neither?

 

Also, I was thinking of ringing O2 and saying I would like to cancel my contract which would hopefully lead to them asking "why do you want to cancel" and I would explain and hopefully they would want to maybe do a deal with me as they would not want to lose a valued customer? Or do you reckon they will just say "fine, you can cancel your contract but we want the money you owe"?

[locutus]

Your credit rating can be damaged by not paying. I have heard of instances of the network accepting a lower amount so keep communications open and see if you can haggle them down.

 

Read o2's code of practice on complaint handling o2 code of practice - Google Search and write to them pointing out exactly what you think a good compromise would be. Ask them if they don't accept this to give you a DEADLOCK letter so you can escalate the complaint.

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to work out the basis of a strategy.

 

The money has been stoled but it hasn't been stoln from you it has been stolen from O2.

I'm sure that legally is correct.

It seems to be that they have no basis upon which to recover the stolen money from you unless they can point to some contractual obligation upon you to indemnify them for these kinds of losses.

Is there anything like that?

[BankFodder]

Is the police crime reference in relation to the theft of the phone? or of the calls? - or both.

 

Are you listed as the victim of the theft of the calls?

 

If you are then this is wrong. O2 is the victim

[Human Writes]

The payment is due to be taken on 22nd September so 11 days.

 

I have been receiving conflicting advice from friends, one friend says if I cancel my direct debit I will be black listed on O2 but no other networks and would be able to get a contract with another network.

Another friend says I will be black listed on all networks for the rest of my life meaning I would be on PAYG for the rest of my life (maybe not such a bad thing) and that the bailiffs would be round my house if I do not pay the outstanding bill.

 

Can you tell me which is correct or neither?

 

Also, I was thinking of ringing O2 and saying I would like to cancel my contract which would hopefully lead to them asking "why do you want to cancel" and I would explain and hopefully they would want to maybe do a deal with me as they would not want to lose a valued customer? Or do you reckon they will just say "fine, you can cancel your contract but we want the money you owe"?

 

Your credit rating would be affected by late or non payment which would affect your ability to get credit on all networks, however, you can't be blacklisted for life, the maximum period a default or entries about late payment can stay on your credit file is six years from the date they were applied.

 

In theory they could instruct baliffs eventually, but this would take at least six months, if not more of non payment from you. Any baliffs they did instruct are unlikely to be court appointed baliffs, they will be employee of a debt collection agency, as such I believe they wouldn't be able to enter your home or remove goods without your permission.

 

Retentions should be able to take cancellation notice from you and they cannot insist on immediate payment of the bill, however, I doubt that any frontline member of staff will agree to waive the disputed charges, the average member of staff in customer services at this type of organisation will not have the authourity to waive £400 worth of charges, most of them have credit limits imposed by management of between £30 and £50, so they literally cannot waive charges as high as £400 without specific approval. Your going to need managment for that...I'd be delighted to be wrong but I think your going to have to fight for a refund of these charges.

[jacktheband]

If the charges were incurred after you reported the theft then O2 are indeed the victims. Before that time, then you are the victim. You are liable for those charges. This is clarified under section 9.1.3 of their standard Ts&Cs.

 

It boils down to appealing to their human nature for a reduction in the bill as goodwill, but you have no legal ground to demand they do so.

 

As has been seen on this forum numerous times recently, although the consumer in these situations has to face up to the reality that they have no leg to stand on legally, most of the time the networks do bend quite a bit and try to meet some middle ground, leaving the network not out of pocket nor the consumer with an unpayable bill.

 

In terms of cancelling the direct debit, that's a tricky one to deal with. If the network can apply a special flag to your account to cease any collections activity whilst under negotiations then you might have some breathing room to see if they'll budge. I'm not sure if O2 will give a 30 day 'discussion period' (other networks do this) to allow this issue to be discussed before anything gets passed to the credit agencies, but your first port of call to find out is to ring them and ask to speak to the department that deals with collections/overdue amounts, asking them directly as to what they can do whilst it is being queried.

[Human Writes]

I'm trying to work out the basis of a strategy.

 

The money has been stoled but it hasn't been stoln from you it has been stolen from O2.

I'm sure that legally is correct.

It seems to be that they have no basis upon which to recover the stolen money from you unless they can point to some contractual obligation upon you to indemnify them for these kinds of losses.

Is there anything like that?

 

There are standard terms in all of the mobile phone contracts to this effect from memory:

 

Your airtime contract - O2

 

4.7 O2 cannot set usage limits and the Customer will be liable for all Charges incurred by its use of the Wireless Services. O2 may monitor the Customer’s usage of the Wireless Services for the purpose of controlling O2’s credit risk and the Customer’s exposure to fraudulent usage.

 

9. Obligations of the Customer

 

 

9.1 The Customer undertakes with O2 that throughout the Wireless Service Period it will use its reasonable endeavours to:

 

 

...

 

 

9.1.3 notify O2 immediately (and to confirm in writing) on becoming aware that any Device or SIM Card has been lost or stolen or that any person is making improper or illegal use of the Device, SIM Card or the Wireless Services. The Customer will be responsible for any Charges incurred as a result of unauthorised use of any Device, or SIM Card, or the information contained within a SIM Card, until O2 has received a request from the Customer to suspend the Wireless Services to that Device or SIM Card...

 

 

As far as a strategy goes my suggestion is complain first using 02's complaints process, if this is unsuccessful contact their CEO Matthew Key [email protected] and the matter will be referred to a high level complaints department (these departments usually don't take on a complaint unless you have at least made an effort to deal with the complaint via customer services in the first place).

 

 

 

If you get no joy from a the high level complaints department then you can seek deadlock and independent arbitration of the dispute (which has to be paid for by 02) as locutus suggested, the final step you could take would be a dispute/reclaimation of the charges through the courts.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Human Writes
typos

[BankFodder]

It is an indemnity clause. O2 is the victim of the theft. But yes, on that basis, I don't see any way out

[theycallmelaura]

Check out my thread just a bit further down 'Orange- liable for call costs incurred by thief' and see how I managed to get my charge reduced by two thirds. I originally complained on Monday and got the charge reuced today. Not a bad turn around. If you want any more info on how I negotiated them down, feel free to ask!

[jacktheband]

Check out my thread just a bit further down 'Orange- liable for call costs incurred by thief' and see how I managed to get my charge reduced by two thirds. I originally complained on Monday and got the charge reuced today. Not a bad turn around. If you want any more info on how I negotiated them down, feel free to ask!

 

Again, as mentioned previously, you are appealing to someone's human side to see if they will meet you half way and ease a situation for you in which you have no sturdy ground to maintain your position.

 

You quite simply cannot 'complain' about the issue. All you can do is look to open dialogue and discuss the situation with someone who hopefully can put themselves in your shoes and do what they would hope be done if it was them. Do not let the previous post fool you into thinking you have a right for a reduction, or there is 'method' to have it reduced.

 

That saying, you stand yourself a chance with being friendly and engaging with the members of staff you speak to, offering to pay cost price for the charges and persuading them to waive any profit element from bill. I wish you all the luck in getting somewhere with this. Don't forget to post the outcome on this thread.

[theycallmelaura]

Well, I 'complained' about the issue. That doesn't mean I started shouting and screaming. I expressed my dissatisfaction. Which is the definition of a complaint. Of course you don't have the 'right', and I never suggested as such. I simply put forward that in my opinion making a profit from a crime was unethical. And that offering PAYG customers the option of a 25p a minute bundle to Pakistan and charging me 81p a minute suggested their operating costs for these calls were below 25p. I appealed to their sense of reason.

So how on earth, Jackthe band, can anyone be 'fooled' in to thinking they have a 'right' for a reduction based on my post?!

[jacktheband]

theycallmelaura, i appear to have misread your post, for that i apologise. I had read the post thinking that you were showing an example of how to demand a waive of the charges, but in re-reading your post i see that as not the case.

 

It must be said, that i have been seeing more and more threads of this nature recently with people getting stung for high bills when phones are stolen. Not sure why the sudden increase. Anyone have any ideas?

[maniche77]

thank you for your advice everyone.

 

theycallmelaura, what was your strategy in negotiating the charges down? And who did you speak to, just the normal customer service representative or a manager/team leader person? Were they quite polite and willing to come to an agreement or did it take several phonecalls before you actually got anywhere?