NCP and Railway Car Park

[5printst]

This is a terrific site and I've read loads of advice and strings which I think are close to my particular issue and fully understand the advice will be JUST IGNORE IT and it will eventually go away.

 

After some reflection I still decided to post so that anyone else who has received a similar notice from NCP to the one I got today will be able to follow the advice stream.

 

I parked at my local train station today (Ely,Cambridgeshire) at around 11.15am, it was chock a block as it always is.

I bought a one day parking ticket and a return train ticket from the lady at the train company window in the station. I parked my car in an area I've parked in for over 6 years ( basically at Ely if you can find enough space to leave your car without actually blocking anyone in or doing something very silly and you pay then nobody minds, it's a very unkempt car park and not clearly marked ) I put my parking ticket/permit in the window and went off for the day, returning at 5pm to find a black and yellow plastic envelope with the words "Parking Contravention Charge Notice" tucked under my windscreen wiper.

It contained a piece of paper titled, not surprisingly, Parking Contravention Charge Notice, below that "Notice of Breach of Rail Byelaws" and had a date of offence, and a date of issue, and a time of issue (3pm) my vehicle registration number, make and colour. My violation was described as ..

" Parked in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit ".

I checked with the railway staff and apparently this area of the car park is for season ticket holders only, and they showed me a weathered sign.

There are signs saying "Season ticket holders only" in several places in what passes for a car park at Ely and, to my knowledge in 6 years, day ticket holders and season ticket holders have all parked wherever they could (even on the grass everyday with no issue).

 

I have my parking ticket/permit and I have the receipt from the Rail company for the parking ticket, so I am going to follow the advice of the seasoned pros on here and sit back, wait for and weather the storm.

 

I will of course update the forum with my progress.

 

Best Wishes

[pin1onu]

One thing to be aware is that if is a genuine ticket based on the byelaws then they will take you to the magistrates court. If you do get a summons to the Magistrates then I suggest you pay the original amount.

 

However given the title of the their invoice it sounds like a normal piece of toilet paper by the PPC. Do as you plan to do - ignore.

[Prawns25]

What a pity! Common sense parking in your local community has now been replaced by controlled money making.

[crem]

I agree with pin1onu which should be easily checked if you can post a pic of it up on here. Clues will be things like they quote a VAT number, they refer to bylaws but don't state clearly how they would pursue that the mags court, things like that.

 

Obviously if it turns out to be a standard PPC invoice, you have clear grounds to report them for fraud because they have referred to railway bylaws with a clear intention of frightening you into paying.

[Al27]

One thing to be aware is that if is a genuine ticket based on the byelaws then they will take you to the magistrates court. If you do get a summons to the Magistrates then I suggest you pay the original amount.

 

However given the title of the their invoice it sounds like a normal piece of toilet paper by the PPC. Do as you plan to do - ignore.

 

Except it's the usual fraudulent tat from NCP.

 

Forward it to local Trading Standards.

[5printst]

Except it's the usual fraudulent tat from NCP.

 

Forward it to local Trading Standards.

 

Bit worried about potential differing advice from Pin1onu and Al27.. here is that note in full..........all capitals and numbering system (or lack of !) are copied verbatim.

 

N C P

Parking Contravention Charge Notice

NOTICE OF BREACH OF RAIL BYELAWS

Parking Contravention Charge Number CPxxxxx

Date of Offence: 21/05/2009

Date of Issue: 21/05/2009

Time of Issue: 15.00

Vehicle Registration No: xxx xxxx

Vehicle Make: xxxx Vehicle Colour: xxxx

Location: Ely Station SP

Issued by Parking Attendant No : xxxxx

Violation:

Parked in a permit bay without clearly displaying

a valid permit.

A Parking Contravention Charge of £50.00 is now Payable within 28 days or a reduced charge at £25.00 will be accepted in full and final settlement if payment is received by National Car Parks Limited within 14 days.

If payment is not received within 28 days National Car Parks Limited will commence collection procedures which may include legal action for the recovery of the sum claimed in this notice along with all costs associated with its recovery. National Car Parks Limited reserves the right to apply for any legally recoverable costs where the company deems appropriate to recover any losses sustained by them.

Payment instructions are overleaf

For Postal Payment attach this slip and return it with your payment to arrive within 14 days for the reduced charge or within 28 days.

Postal Payment Type (circle one method and one amount only)

Cheque

Postal Order

Amount due: £25.00 within 14 days £50.00 within 28 days

Parking Contravention Charge Number CPxxxxx

Overleaf………..

HOW TO PAY

By telephone – debit or credit card – please call 0845 452 7780. Please have your card and this ticket to hand when you make the call.

By post- Cheque or Postal Order- please make payable to National Car Parks Limited and complete the payment slip overleaf and send to Notice Processing , PO Box 1862 Croydon, CR9 1FA.

Online payment- please log on to www.ncp.co.uk /pcn enter your Vehicle Registration Mark and Parking Contravention Number and follow the instructions on screen.

HOW TO APPEAL

If you feel that you have received this Parking Contravention Incorrectly or should not be liable to make payment for this notice an appeal must be received by us within fourteen (14) days of the issue of this notice. Appeals made outside of fourteen (14) days will be rejected.

Please send appeals to Notice Processing PO Box 1862 Croydon, CR9 1FA.

Clearly state within your appeal the parking Contravention number, your vehicle registration mark and your grounds for appeal.

Appeals will be reviewed in line with our terms and conditions.

COMPANY DETAILS

Processing PO Box 1862 Croydon, CR9 1FA.

VAT Number 239054659

RAILWAY BYELAWS

This site is operated in accordance with the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Strategic Rail Authority ( the”Authority”) and confirmed under schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000 by the Secretary of State for Transport on 22 June 2005 for regulating the use and working of, and travel on or by means of, railway assets, the maintenance of order on railway assets and the conduct of all persons while on railway assets (the”Byelaws”).

Your attention is specifically drawn to the Railway Byelaw 14 which states:

Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking.

No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign.

 

(2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway:

 

(i) in any manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using the railway; or

 

otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person.

 

(3) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall park it on any part of the railway where charges are made for parking by an Operator or an authorised person without paying the appropriate charge at the appropriate time in accordance with instructions given by an Operator or an authorised person at that place.

 

In England and Wales

 

(i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

 

(ii) Without prejudice to Byelaw 14(4)(i), any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be clamped, removed, and stored, by or under the direction of an Operator or an authorised person.

 

The owner of the motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall be liable to an Operator or an authorised person for the costs incurred in clamping, removing and storing it provided that there is in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these Byelaws may be clamped, removed and stored by an Operator or an authorised person and that the costs incurred by an Operator or an authorised person for this may be recovered from the vehicle's owner.

 

The power of clamping and removal provided in Byelaw 14(4)(ii) above shall not be exercisable in any area where passenger parking is permitted unless there is on display in that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to these Byelaws may be clamped and/or removed by an Operator or an authorised person.

[RichardM]

Looks all nice and genuine, but they have slipped up on just one tiny little detail.

 

Under byelaw £14, there is a penalty for breach of parking regulations, which MUST be clearly signposted. There is no reduction for early payment. It is a fixed penalty.

 

That said, even if you do get a magistrate's summons (which incidently is very unlikely as NCP want the money) there is a defence for you.

 

Byelaw 24 states under the heading of Enforcement

 

(4) Notices

No person shall be subject to any penalty for breach of any of the Byelaws by disobeying a notice unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the Court before whom the complaint is laid that the notice referred to in the particular Byelaw was displayed.

 

Given your description of the state of the car park, and the lack of signage, I would suggest that you take a few photos of the area in which you were parked, and the entrance to the car park. Take particular note of any sign making reference to the byelaws, the penalty for breach of the byelaws and it's condition and the size of print etc.

 

If they are anything like the one's in our local NCP run car park (Newport in South Wales, the signs are extremely small and the print even smaller.

 

This may actually be the gem that we are looking for. One where NCP are very clearly, through their quotation of the byelaws in full on the ticket, attempting to show that the ticket was issued in accordance with byelaws. It might be against the boards normal policy, but this is one instance where I would (personally) suggest an appeal on the grounds that the signage was not sufficient to comply with Byelaw 24.4, just to see how they come back. It may give NCP an opportunity to totally hang themselves out to dry if they decline on the basis that they had met their requirements under the byelaws and then try take out a civil action against you, circumnavigating your right to trial.

Incidently, I would also spark off a VERY stiff letter to the MD of NationalExpress East Anglia, Mr Martin Chivers, regarding the condition of the Car park and the inability of users to find space on a regular basis, and the outcome of the inadequacies. His address is:

Floor One

Oliver's Yard

55 City Road

London

EC1Y 1HQ

Edited May 21, 2009 by RichardM

[broke ford driver]

Your advice relates to NCP at railway stations- does it apply to APCOA?

I have a "civil penalty notice" issued at a first great western station when a valid ticket was purchased and left on the dashboard. I'd be keen to know if they are authorised to issue fixed penalties or are just another [problem].

 

Many Thanks

[lamma]

NCP ticket is Fraud, we see that a lot. lets hope they do issue real court papers for one of these, it would be lovely in the extreme to get that stuff in front of a judge. Judges take a dim view of people who falsely claim or abuse statutory powers for some reason :) We need to see the APCOA one but am willing to say that sight unseen the chances of it NOT being fraud and extremely small indeed.

[RichardM]

General advice is still to ignore the tickets unless it gets to court papers being serves. This is a one off case, mainly because NCP are using different wording on thier ticket to normal

[RichardM]

NCP ticket is Fraud, we see that a lot. lets hope they do issue real court papers for one of these, it would be lovely in the extreme to get that stuff in front of a judge. Judges take a dim view of people who falsely claim or abuse statutory powers for some reason :) We need to see the APCOA one but am willing to say that sight unseen the chances of it NOT being fraud and extremely small indeed.

 

You can't say that this ticket is a fraud for definite until you see the further action and evidence. It may well say on the station signage that the penalty is reduced if paid within 14 days, in which case the wording on the ticket is correct. They may also decide to report the OP for action in magistrates court, which they are perfectly entitled to do if they are a properly appointed agent, although they know they won't get any money.

 

It only becomes apparent as a fraud IF they decide to pursue the OP for a civil claim, after they have indicated that they are reporting the OP for a breach of statute, thereby giving the OP no chance to properly defend his position in a court of law, to which he is entitled.

[lamma]

I have to disagree (in a friendly way). they have claimed bylaw 14 as the basis for the action but are trying to effect personal gain. Bylaw fines go to Mags court. Fraud Act 2006 S.2 False representation. Fraud Act 2006 (c. 35) - Statute Law Database

[RichardM]

I know what you're saying Lamma, and you're probably right, but we have to be careful in prejudgement for the sake of the OP. So far they haven't given any clear indication that they are doing this for personal gain as they haven't said WHAT collection procedures they will take.

 

At the moment, there is a remote chance that they may still be working on behalf of NationalExpress East Anglia. In which case, the ticket will have the same (sort of) status as a council ticket issued by NCP under the RTA for on street offences.

 

Once they go down the road of civil collection procedures, then it becomes a fraudlent collection process.

[Al27]

But we have seen the procedure - you just get lumped in with all the others and end up on the Roxburge>Graham White train.

[lamma]

again I still disagree. They don't have to commence the civil action, the statements made on the invoice are enough under S.2 (1) (in my opinion ) There is no way on planet earth that NCP are not familiar with the real process for real bylaw tickets so S.2 (2) apllies (okay we can debate the knowledge required and do they possess it). By not mentioning the actual enforcement through Magistrate's Court they also breach S.3 ! Their only possible defense is incompetence. I believe this is more to do with the huge debt obligation that NSL is carrying than anything else. Consider the size of NSL and the extent of this suggested Fraud - its a lot of money. HMG could easily get hold of the NSL email history etc and hit this one out of the ball park. POCA could even be applied I guess.

[5printst]

Thanks guys... I'm glad I did decide to post after all.

 

So just to get things straight, this is by no means a cut and dry ignore it and it will go away case.

 

They (NCP/Train Company) may have a case / have done things properly ?

How do I know at this stage, what can I do now while waiting ?

 

Is it important /relevant that I did actually buy a valid one day parking ticket ? Is it important/relevant that I didn't buy it from NCP but direct from the train company ?

 

How do I/we determine if this is an "invoce" or a potential court case ?

 

 

General advice is still to ignore the tickets unless it gets to court papers being serves. This is a one off case, mainly because NCP are using different wording on thier ticket to normal

What do you mean by different wording ? what specifically should it say to make it an invoce as opposed to a genuine request for payment.

 

I know what you're saying Lamma, and you're probably right, but we have to be careful in prejudgement for the sake of the OP. So far they haven't given any clear indication that they are doing this for personal gain as they haven't said WHAT collection procedures they will take.

At the moment, there is a remote chance that they may still be working on behalf of NationalExpress East Anglia. In which case, the ticket will have the same (sort of) status as a council ticket issued by NCP under the RTA for on street offences.

Not sure what you mean by remote chance they may still be working on behalf of NXEA. Are you saying that if they are working on behalf of NXEA then they have the right be paid ? ...because NXEA is using the byelaw and they are their agent ?

Or if it is a car park belonging to NCP then they can whistle for it ?

 

 

Once they go down the road of civil collection procedures, then it becomes a fraudlent collection process.

By civil collection procedures do you mean follow up letters not mentioning taking me to a magistrates court, precisely what should I be looking out for ?

 

again I still disagree. They don't have to commence the civil action, the statements made on the invoice are enough under S.2 (1) (in my opinion ) There is no way on planet earth that NCP are not familiar with the real process for real bylaw tickets so S.2 (2) apllies (okay we can debate the knowledge required and do they possess it). By not mentioning the actual enforcement through Magistrate's Court they also breach S.3 ! Their only possible defense is incompetence. I believe this is more to do with the huge debt obligation that NSL is carrying than anything else. Consider the size of NSL and the extent of this suggested Fraud - its a lot of money. HMG could easily get hold of the NSL email history etc and hit this one out of the ball park. POCA could even be applied I guess.

Who is NSL and what does this have to do with them ?

 

I am going back to the car park tomorrow to look at the wording on the signage and the ticket machines and the location of the signs.

What should I be particulalrly interested / looking for ?

 

Thanks Again All ....much appreciated

 

John

[Al27]

I think Richard is thinking out loud, but unintentionally having the effect of stirring the hornets nest and planting doubt in your mind.

 

You have a fraudulent unenforceable invoice. Ignore it.

[lamma]

Agreed Al27. Sprintst, NSL is the new name of NCP Services NSL Services Group

[Grob]

I couldn't believe my luck this morning when I found this website and saw that 5printst has had exactly the same thing happen as did to me yesterday!

I too did not see the sign at first until it was pointed out to me. It is indeed very weathered (sun bleached!) and does not state anything about the penalty for parking in this area or the bye-laws involved. I took a pic of it tonight to see if this would confirm whether we have an appeal for this point alone. The wording on the sign directly outside this permit area reads as follows:

"Car parking - Ely Station

Parking in this area is for season ticket and permit holders only.

The area marked National Express station parking is a non public area. No daily parking tickets are permitted to park in this area.

The station area is managed by NCP.

Thank you for your cooperation.

*******(name)

Area Station Manager Ely."

Is this enough to contest the ticket? How formal should the letter be?

thanks!

Grob

Edited May 22, 2009 by Grob

[crem]

If, as is looking likely in this thread, NCP are issuing PPC invoices rather than correctly trying to impose a railway bylaws (14) penalty, then you should do nothing Grob.

 

there is no appeals system, and they won't listen to a word you say. Simply ignore all their junk mail.

[lamma]

you don't write to a PPC - ever. Have a bit more of a read around on here Grob.

[RichardM]

I wasn't trying to stir up a hornets nest, and yes, I am thinking but for a reason. The question of parking on railway property is arising more and more often and we still have not got a definitive answer.

 

What I think is being forgotten by people who are so used to seeing the laxidasical paperwork and methods of the PPC's is that penalties for breaches of parking on Railway property are legally enforceable in a court of law, just like council tickets issued in non decriminalised parking areas, and that the Railway Operators (or those appointed by the Railway Operators) have a legal right to collect these penalties. Notices issued on Railway land are not invoices, although they can often be treated as such due to after action, or mishandling by the issuing agent after the event.

 

If this was being done by a company set specifically by the train operators to enforce these penalties, in the same way that the penalty fares system is administered, then people would rightly be very wary. After all, if you don't pay a penalty fare, you risk magistrates court for fare evasion.

 

What is causing confusion is that the TOC's are employing companies who are already undertaking the role in several other fields ie decriminalised parking enforcement for councils and private parking contract enforcement. Because they are normally being seen to employ the same methods of revenue collection as they do with their PPC invoices, we are treating them as unlawful enforcement, but they do not have to do it this way, and that is what was worrying me with this particular ticket. There is no reference to the method of enforcement, the potential punitive measures that may be suffered for non payment etc, all of which are normal for PPC tickets. Instead, there is a clearly laid out set of details of the location, offence and the byelaw to which it appertains and states that a penalty for breach is payable. This is probably the BEST example of a Railway penalty notice that I have come across on this forum. Whether it is enforceable by anyone other than the Train Operator is still open to debate.

 

The way that the TOC's and the PPC's are working with regard to parking issues and enforcement is almost identical to the DVLA SORN notice debacle. ie. the DVLA have a legal statute on which to rely should they wish to prosecute for a failure to pay a SORN penalty, yet they choose to treat the matter as a civil debt, presumably because they don't the legality of thier actions to be challenged in court too often. The same applies to the TOC's. The caution is that every so often, the DVLA do decide to take one to the courts, even if they normally lose.

 

As far as the notice is concerned, I have yet to see anything in writing which states what information a penalty notice issued under byelaw 14 of the Railway Byelaws must contain. Obviously, if this were issued as a decriminalised PCN, there are certain standards which must be met, but the same has not yet been established for Railway PCN's (or have they?)

 

I'm not saying that I disagree with Lamma and Al27 about your next move, which is wait and see for the time being. What I am saying, and which both disagree with, is that when the next notice comes from NCP, it will need to be looked at very carefully. If they go along their normal course, and start with threats of debt collectors etc, you have absolutely nothing to worry about at all. If they try any other line, get back to us quickly.

 

In the meantime, it would be good to have photos of the signage from the station, particularly any which refers to the parking rules and penalties for breaches of those rules.

 

I'm wracking my brains trying to think who I might know in the railway industry who might be able to give an informed insight into what is going on with the TOC/PPC contract situation. If I come up with anyone, I'll certainly be asking.

[5printst]

Is it important /relevant that I did actually buy a valid one day parking ticket ? Is it important/relevant that I didn't buy it from NCP but direct from the train company ?

..............and the location of the signs.

 

One update though... I did find out this evening that Network Rail own the car park and have leased it to NCP.

 

 

I couldn't believe my luck this morning when I found this website and saw that 5printst has had exactly the same thing happen as did to me yesterday!

I too did not see the sign at first until it was pointed out to me. It is indeed very weathered (sun bleached!) and does not state anything about the penalty for parking in this area or the bye-laws involved. I took a pic of it tonight to see if this would confirm whether we have an appeal for this point alone. The wording on the sign directly outside this permit area reads as follows:

"Car parking - Ely Station

Parking in this area is for season ticket and permit holders only.

The area marked National Express station parking is a non public area. No daily parking tickets are permitted to park in this area.

The station area is managed by NCP.

Thank you for your cooperation.

*******(name)

Area Station Manager Ely."

Grob

 

I also took some pics tonight and, I think more importantly, there are actually 2 signs with this same wording at the same end (different corners) of a large pay and display car park. It's very misleading.

 

I read the full NCP terms and conditions board ( couldn't begin to write them down !!) but there was definitely something there about i, ii, and iii, being 3 forms of acceptable payment for a Pay and Display car park which this is. And I had bought a day parking ticket and therefore met their terms and conditions.

 

Grob I am not writing to them. I am taking the advice of this forum and sitting tight.

 

 

Thanks All

John

 

PS , Grob have you noticed that all the signs referring to "Season Ticket Holders Only" at the bombsite ( previously free !!!) end of the car park have been removed ?

Edited May 22, 2009 by 5printst

[RichardM]

I couldn't believe my luck this morning when I found this website and saw that 5printst has had exactly the same thing happen as did to me yesterday!

I too did not see the sign at first until it was pointed out to me. It is indeed very weathered (sun bleached!) and does not state anything about the penalty for parking in this area or the bye-laws involved. I took a pic of it tonight to see if this would confirm whether we have an appeal for this point alone. The wording on the sign directly outside this permit area reads as follows:

"Car parking - Ely Station

Parking in this area is for season ticket and permit holders only.

The area marked National Express station parking is a non public area. No daily parking tickets are permitted to park in this area.

The station area is managed by NCP.

Thank you for your cooperation.

*******(name)

Area Station Manager Ely."

Is this enough to contest the ticket? How formal should the letter be?

thanks!

Grob

 

Grob

 

That information is useful, particularly when combined with 5printst's description of how the same notices appear in the pay and display car park as well.

 

That sign, on it's own, is not sufficient to ensure a successful prosection under byelaw 14, as it is missing an important detail, the level of the penalty.

14. (4) In England and Wales

The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

 

My reading of that is that no penalty for breach of the byelaw is indicated there cannot be a penalty imposed.

[lamma]

All good points. NCP makes no money at all by enforcing according to the byelaws (if they have the right to) as the money goes to the court. I can see no way that they can legally or lawfully translate a byelaw breach into revenue or a contract issue (with the driver, as I recall the byelaws make the owner liable). NCP could go the byelaw route but would then have to explain their 'first attempt' (of using the byelaws to make money for themselves) if the case was defended in magistrate's court.