Amex CCA received - is it enforceable please

[cadwallader]

I have today receied a response from Amex to my CCA request dated 7 May 2009, so they have at least responded within the time limit.

 

Would someone please look at it and see if it appears to be valid.

 

Many thanks

Amex cc CCA.pdf

Edited May 20, 2009 by cadwallader

[vint1954]

Strange agreement this. At first glance it does not look enforceable as the prescribed terms are not within the 4 corners of the signed document, but on a separate sheet.

 

Hold tight and someone with better experience will be along soon.

 

Do you have a reason for challenging the agreement.

 

Vint

[the_shadow]

Strange agreement this. At first glance it does not look enforceable as the prescribed terms are not within the 4 corners of the signed document, but on a separate sheet.

 

If they can link the first page to the second then in my opinion it will be enforceable. [signature on first page/prescribed terms on second]

 

This looks like it could be from a Microfiche copy so they would have to state that the second page was the back of the first page in court as they possibly dont have the original two sided document anymore.

 

S.

[Pinky69]

Microfiche copies are a copy of the original and not admissable in court - it is regarded as Hearsay evidence.

[the_shadow]

Microfiche copies are a copy of the original and not admissable in court - it is regarded as Hearsay evidence.

 

I think you might want to clarify that statement as its confusing at first glance.

 

"Microfiche copies are a copy of the original and not admissable in court"

"it is regarded as Hearsay evidence"

 

So on the one hand you state its not admissable and on the other its accepted as hearsay evidence.

 

Also it depends on the court level how much credence is given to the copy and the weighting given as evidence. If its small claims then there are NO formal evidence rules, only what the judge decides as far as I'm aware.

 

S.

[cadwallader]

Vint

 

I have received the attached Default Notice. They have only given 14 days to pay from the date of the notice rather than receipt of it but this seemed a bit thin for me to risk a potential unlawful termination on, so was looking at whether the agreement was enforceable as an additional strong reason for not acknowledging the debt.

Amex DN.pdf

Edited May 20, 2009 by cadwallader

[vint1954]

Still not quite sure on the application form being an agreement?

 

Vint

[the_shadow]

Vint

 

I have received the attached Default Notice. They have only given 14 days to pay from the date of the notice rather than receipt of it but this seemed a bit thin for me to risk a potential unlawful termination on, so was looking at whether the agreement was enforceable as an additional strong reason for not acknowledging the debt.

 

They have to allow 2 working days for service, as this was sent on a Thursday (14th) they need to disallow Friday and Monday before counting the 14 calendar days.

 

S.

[vint1954]

The Dn should give you 14 clear days from service, so 14 days plus 2 days posting not counting weekends. So service should be deemed as 18th May plus 14 days and 1 for bank holiday would make it 2nd June. If they terminate under this DN, I beleive that they will only be able to claim the arrears in the DN.

 

Did your agreement come as one document?

 

Vint

[Pinky69]

?????? Shadow - Hearsay evidence is never admissable in court, under any circumstances.

[vint1954]

Vint

 

I have received the attached Default Notice. They have only given 14 days to pay from the date of the notice rather than receipt of it but this seemed a bit thin for me to risk a potential unlawful termination on, so was looking at whether the agreement was enforceable as an additional strong reason for not acknowledging the debt.

 

Have you sent off a SARS request or a CPR.

 

Vint

[cadwallader]

The Pre-Approved Agreement and the page headed Conditions were on a single sheet of paper, ie both sides. The rest were on seperate sheets of paper.

[the_shadow]

?????? Shadow - Hearsay evidence is never admissable in court, under any circumstances.

 

 

The Weight of Evidence

 

Although the strict rules of evidence do not apply it should be borne in mind that it is up to the judge how much weight he gives to evidence which is either unchallenged, such a witness who does not attend for cross-examination, or is of doubtful value, such as hearsay evidence.

 

quickest link I could find->

 

S.

[cadwallader]

Vint

 

No, no SARS or CPR yet but presumably as they have provided a signed document i would (probably) just get the same back. My position is I need to decide fairly quickly whether to pay or not and that would depend on how strong a probable case I have based on an incorrect date in the Default Notice and any defects in the CCA.

[the_shadow]

Vint

 

No, no SARS or CPR yet but presumably as they have provided a signed document i would (probably) just get the same back. My position is I need to decide fairly quickly whether to pay or not and that would depend on how strong a probable case I have based on an incorrect date in the Default Notice and any defects in the CCA.

 

 

Post up either the agreement or a link to the thread in this one for some more opinions ->>

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful-27.html

 

should get a response on enforceability.

 

Apologies if the Microfiche debtate clouded things, I've already given my opinion on the agreement and DN so cant add anything there.

 

S.

[count orlok]

?????? Shadow - Hearsay evidence is never admissable in court, under any circumstances.

 

Is that realy true, I thought it was, but was told and have read otherwise. If it is indeed true I have am in a great position; I know what a copy of an original looks like, and unless they are using copy machines from the 60s not one of the copies i have recieved is of the original.

 

I was spending time working out how i could convince a DJ why he should not accept hearsay evidence from a DCA, like because they have sent me forged documents (which i would show him), so how can he be sure the copy produced is not also forged?

 

I must add the only law i did at uni was for social work and not consumer, but under that hearsay was not permited so it may be different.

Edited May 20, 2009 by count orlok

[cadwallader]

Thanks Shadow. I guess i am a little wary of not paying when the CCA appears probably enforceable and with only the date issue on the DN to rely on.

[the_shadow]

Thanks Shadow. I guess i am a little wary of not paying when the CCA appears probably enforceable and with only the date issue on the DN to rely on.

 

Completely understand.. whilst we may all give our uninformed or informed opinions on here, at the end of the day the consequences of our comments are borne out by the OP not the people leaving comments.

 

As I say if you get more comments in that thread it may help the decision.

 

S.

[steven4064]

I have today receied a response from Amex to my CCA request dated 7 May 2009, so they have at least responded within the time limit.

 

Would someone please look at it and see if it appears to be valid.

 

Many thanks

Agreement is enforceable as I am sure a court would rule that the two pages are opposite sides of the same docuement. It has everything needed to be enforceable - signaure, prescribed terms, cancellation rights

 

Vint

 

I have received the attached Default Notice. They have only given 14 days to pay from the date of the notice rather than receipt of it but this seemed a bit thin for me to risk a potential unlawful termination on, so was looking at whether the agreement was enforceable as an additional strong reason for not acknowledging the debt.

Dn is invalid as it doesn't give you the statutory 14 days to remedy the default. This is game over. If they take you to court, immediately go for a strike out under CPR 3.4(2)(a) as they have no right of action

?????? Shadow - Hearsay evidence is never admissable in court, under any circumstances.

Heresay evidence is permitted under s2 of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 but they have to give you and the court notice.

[cadwallader]

Shadow

 

Yes, I guess I am just wary of ending up in court where the only defence is a date that is out by 5 days in a DN. I understand that in law it is either correct or not but as someone with absolutely no experience of appearing in court (so far!) it makes me very nervous and I can't really convince myself it would go in my favour. Thanks vey much for you input, much appreciated.

 

C

[cadwallader]

Have now seen steven4064's response for which many thanks although my above comment about nerves still applies!!!

[steven4064]

Invalid DN is game, set and match to you. They cannot bring a case and, if they do, you apply to have it struck out

[cadwallader]

Thanks Steven. So I presume I just wait for termination notice, which would be unlawful? Can they issue an amended DN prior to termination if they realise their error?

 

C

[steven4064]

They cannot issue another DN as they have terminated the agreement so there is no agreement to default

[cadwallader]

Steven, they haven't issued a termination notice yet, only the DN which has not yet reached the (incorrect) deadline they set.

 

C