SB100 v HFC - is this default compliant? Court/Restons ***WON***

[supasnooper]

Oh dear.............game over for HFC\Restons.

 

Make sure you keep tight hold of the envelope and also take a copy of UKMails statement from their website regarding their Economy service.

[SB100]

We offer a Business Class, two day definite delivery service, or you can choose our Economy three day definite option..

 

If they were try to argue that they use the 2 day 'business class' might that hold water?

[supasnooper]

Oh dear !!!!

 

UKMail have changed their description of their mail services.

 

You'll need to look for a cached version of the old descriptions.

 

If I find it, I'll post it up.

 

However, see what Restons say about the delivery service, they may state Royal Mail.

[supasnooper]

It might also be worth having a look through this as well -

 

http://www.ukmail.biz/assets/UKMGuide2.pdf

[diddydicky]

It might also be worth having a look through this as well -

 

http://www.ukmail.biz/assets/UKMGuide2.pdf

 

well well well,

 

your post threw up a useful bit of information apart from the above thread

 

UK mail does not collect on a Saturday or Sunday (or bank holiday)

 

and i have some DN's allegedly dated on a Saturday and which the creditors are stating were served on me on the Monday- must get them to make a binding statement !!

 

thanks

[SB100]

I think the salient point, in my case, is that UK Mail delivered it to Royal Mail- who then delivered it to me- so maybe it could be argued that the clock only starts once it enters to Royal Mail postal system?

[SB100]

Interestingly, when inspecting the envelope in conjunction with the guide (Thanks SS), the UK Mail insignia is missing from my envelope. The guide appears to indicate that this is mandatory.. I wonder if its a deliberate omission to throw consumers off the case?

[middenmess]

I think the salient point, in my case, is that UK Mail delivered it to Royal Mail- who then delivered it to me- so maybe it could be argued that the clock only starts once it enters to Royal Mail postal system?

 

That's a very good point to argue especially when put alongside their statement under 'Compensation'...

 

The Customer acknowledges that UK Mail is required to use Royal Mail for the final delivery, and

accordingly is not able to offer any assurance as to the actual delivery day of any Mailing Item.

 

1.

Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

2.

To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

(a)

in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

(b)

in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

3.

Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

4.

This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process

 

As 'Business Post' was not considered in the above,then the item should not even be considered to have been posted until such time as it arrives with the Royal Mail which should be accepted under the law as the date of posting because as stated above the only true First class or Second class mail is that provided by the only recognised service,Royal mail.

[SB100]

But their post doesn't even enter the Royal Mail network for at least 24 hours.

 

It seems their quest to save money should add substantially to their service times. I think that could probably be argued effectively?

[middenmess]

Unless it can be universally accepted that the time allowed for postage only starts when the item is received by the Royal Mail then you or anyone could set up a letter delivery service offering to deliver within say 5 days or whatever and then calling that particular service as your 'First Class' service.

 

I have little doubt that a Q.C. could present an excellent argument on this point which would probably be accepted in court,but whether the same argument presented in court by a L.I.P. would carry the same weight is somewhat doubtful.

 

As is seen time and time again when reading through threads on here,everything is open to interpretation and even those 'set in stone' often fail in court if not fully understood by the judges,whose knowledge of consumer law can appear to vary somewhat.

[SB100]

Ok, had a letter from Restons on Saturday re disclosure. It seems that the court timetable doesn't matter to them.

 

Not really sure where to go from here..

 

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[SB100]

Anyone?

[AndyOrch]

File it and wait for their list then you can exchange simultaneously as advised by the court (even if its 2 weeks late)

 

Regards

 

Andy

[SB100]

Thanks Andy.

 

Would you recommend I revise my list? I haven't included much, as the 'agreement' and 'DN' will no doubt be part of their submission and are the same as mine.

 

I saw no reason to duplicate, but am I being naive? I probably ought to submit their witness statement referring to first class post just in case they chose to lose it...

[AndyOrch]

You submit anything that you intend to use to help win your case the smallest detail (the envelope for eg).A good n265 if used correctly can lead to them running for the hills.You would be surprised how many cases i have dealt with were it has not proceeded past the N265;)

 

Andy

[SB100]

Top man- thanks for that. I'll try and give it my undivided attention tomorrow in considerable detail.

 

I'm hoping the UK Mail envelope, combined with the statement that they always send first class (I'll also include every other envelope that I've ever had as they're all UK Mail) should prove difficult to overcome?

[AndyOrch]

Anything that strikes fear into their case but dont exchange until you have received theirs they dont call the shots.

 

Andy

[SB100]

Ok

[SB100]

Would I include a printout of any case law I intend to rely on?

[SB100]

Just noticed an admission in their skeleton argument for the SO hearing that there was a 'late payment' charge included in the DN. Can I use this?

[AndyOrch]

Would I include a printout of any case law I intend to rely on?

No

 

Just noticed an admission in their skeleton argument for the SO hearing that there was a 'late payment' charge included in the DN. Can I use this?

Yes unfair charge

 

 

 

Andy

[SB100]

Cool...

[SB100]

Do I include a description of the document on the N265- ie, not just the 'title' but why I included it?

[SB100]

Do you think this is worth including / admissable?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/199150-sb100-hfc-default-compliant-10.html#post2482305

[AndyOrch]

Just something along the lines of "Envelope from DN 2nd Class Post;)

 

 

Andy