Rules for parking in unmarked bays in council estate (off street). Not within a controlled zone

[mahharg]

Hi all

 

I am hoping that someone can advise me on an issue that is driving me crazy. I have looked everywhere for an answer to no avail.

 

A friend of mine has moved to a council flat on a housing estate and I have visited and parked in one of the many parking spaces (the type where you park with the front or rear of the car facing the wall). these spaces are seperated by single white lines with no other markings. My question is can I park in one of these bays for free?

 

 

Details of the area

I have double checked and have both physically and on the council website and can confirm that this part of the estate seems to be the only one within the borough not within a controlled zone, there are some parts that are within a controlled zone (different entrance). Perhaps because it's bang on the boundary with another borough.

As I drive into the estate there is the usual signpost with a diagram of the estate showing where the blocks are situated and nothing else, however further in there is one of a few signs some are faded all are high on a wall and one in particular is obscured by a tree. stating that this is a tow away zone and that any vehicle blocking an obstruction or parked in a resident bay will be towed away with costs and contact details included. The bays that I have mentioned above have nothing to indicate that it is a residents bay and there are always plenty of spaces.

 

Within the estate there are garages with large "no parking" road markings on the floor in front of them. There are also double yellow lines along certain parts of the estate (nowhere near the bays in question). There are also a few bays with "visitor max 4hrs" marked on the floor in front of the bay. which always seem to full with residents.

 

I think that I would be allowed to park there but am worried because a tow truck seems to visit the area on a regular basis. I did actually ask the driver of the tow truck but his english wasn't that good and couldn't get a proper answer.

 

I am under the impression that councils can implement their own rules in estates but not sure. Any advice on this matter will be really appreciated.

 

Many thanks

[green_and_mean]

If there is adequate signage the Council can tow away vehicles but unless there is a permit scheme I am not sure how they would know who could park. Your friend should contact the Council and ask as they are obviously better informed of any scheme than we are to guess.

[mahharg]

Thanks for quick reply G & M.

 

There is a parking permit scheme within the estate but I assume that is in the part of the estate where the controlled parking zone is. Nowhere in the area I am referring to are there any signs that state that parking is for residents/permit holders only or words to that effect. The tow away zone sign does state that vehicles will be towed if among other reasons they are parked in residents bays but it doesn't state what is or is not a residents bay.

[Britainsworstdriver]

Assume? Never, ever assume!

 

Easy anser will be to contact the council and ask them. Be very specific about which spaces you are asking about and do it in wrining only. Then you will have your answer.

 

The only assumption I would be making is that you will be ticketed, clamped, towed etc.

[lamma]

which council ? It is known that PPC clamping and towing is going on, vehicles taken to council pound (Leven road)

[mahharg]

Hi all

 

I have been in contact with the local council. The housing estates are managed by an arm of the council. Anyway here are some of the emails

 

Quote

From: mahharg

Sent: 07 May 2009

To: Highways Parking Forms

Subject: Parking in xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx (uncontrolled Zone)

 

Dear Sir/madam

 

I have an issue that I would appreciate a response to. If I were to drive into xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx via xxxxxxxxxxxxxx There are various single yellow lines with no plates showing restriction times (not in a controlled zone). In my view according to parking regulations any ticket would be unenforceable. Additionally any vehicle should not be towed away unless as the faded signs that are posted sparingly further on from the yellow lines state "The vehicle is in a no parking area, causing an obstruction or in residents

bay". A single yellow line on it's own does not constitute a no parking area or residents bay and in fact on unless it is within in a controlled zone is meaningless.

 

These faded plates also state that vehicles parked in a residents bay without a residents permit or in a no parking area will be towed away. Within the estate (not a controlled zone) , in particular behind xxxxxxx House there are at least 30 parking bays that have nothing at all to indicate who can or can't park there. Further on there are a number of bays which have lockable drop down posts and have numbers painted on the floor in front of them. If I were to park in the 30 or so bays without a residents parking permit I would not be expected to be towed away because these bays do not indicate that they are residents bays.

 

In view of my comments above I have a couple of Question that need answering.

 

1) Can I park in one of the 30 unmarked parking bays behind xxxxxxxx House without fear of being towed away?

 

2) Can I park on one of the single yellow lines with no plates showing restriction times and not within a controlled parking zone according to the councils own map of the controlled parking zones?.

 

Kind Regards mahharg

 

I was sent an email by the highways department stating that it is not their responsibility because it is not on the highway (makes sense) and that they are forwarding the email to the relevant housing department who manage the estate.

 

Quote

To: mahharg

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009

 

Subject: RE: Parking in xxxxxxx xxxxxxx (uncontrolled Zone)

 

 

Dear mahharg

Thank you for your email which was passed to me to answer on the 12th of May 2009.

 

The area you refer to is a Council Estate called the xxxxxxx xxxxxxx Estate, and the parking on this estate is provide by and managed by xxxxxxx. In answer to your specific queries:

 

1) The "30 unmarked parking bays" behind xxxxxxx House that you refer to are for residents of the xxxxxxx xxxxxx Estate who must display a valid residents parking permit to be able to park in any of these bays. Failure to dispaly a permit will result in the vehicle being towed away.

 

2) Parking in any yellow lined areas is prohibited, and vehicles parked in these areas will be towed. The yellow line in itself is an indication that vehicles should not be parked in these areas.

 

I am unable to refer you to the regulation that you would be contravening as I am not conversant with the Highways laws, as this is not my area of work. However, most residential areas have some form of parking restrictions and the xxxxxxx Estate is no exception. If you are a resident on the estate you can apply for a residents permit by providing these documents all of which must be registered at an address on the estate with your name on it. They are the vehicle registration log book, valid MOT certificate if applicable, and a valid insurance certificate.

 

If you are not a resident, and you visit the estate at any time, you can park in any of the visitors bays behind xxxxxx House for a maximum of 4 hours at a time. Or you can pay and display on any of the surrounding streets that provide this facility.

 

I acknowledge your concerns about the lack of clarity as to where to park, and the faded signs, etc. and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention. We will endeavour to deal with these matters as a matter of urgency as soon as possible. However, in the meantime, please take note of the guidance I have provided in answer to your queries, and bear them in mind when parking on the estate in order to avoid the risk of your vehicle being towed, and a release fee of at least £125.00.

 

I hope my response is satisfactory.

 

Your sincerely,

 

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

Customer Services Manager

Quote

From: mahharg

Sent: 26 May 2009 22:21

To: Customer Services Manager

Subject: Re: Parking in xxxxxxxxxx (uncontrolled Zone)

 

Dear Customer Services Manager

 

 

Thank you for your reply. Which I am satisfied that you responded to every issue that I had raised however I am not satisfied at the answers. For your reference I am not a resident atxxxxxx house but visit friends there sometimes.

 

I do hope you get this area looked into ASAP because

 

1) The scarce towaway signs state that vehicles "will be towed away if parked in a residents bay". It is totally unfair to expect strangers/visitors entering an area that is not within a Controlled parking zone (CPZ) to be aware that these bays are for residents only without indication.

 

2) The marked visitors bay are sometimes full with vehicles that have a residents parking permits thus restricting visitors from parking there. This must be looked into.

 

3) Yellow lines indicate parking restrictions:

Double yellow lines = no parking at any time.

Single yellow lines = restricted during designated times but not for 24hrs.

In a CPZ (controlled parking zone), the restricted times will be on the zone entry signs.

Outside of a CPZ, you will see a sign or timeplate in the street indicating the restricted times. According the councils own website this is not in a CPZ. Additionally as I mentioned before there are no signs that states restriction signs. Therefore according to traffic regulations a parking ticket or towaway would be unenforcable. However I understand that this would not prevent my vehicle being towed away.

 

 

In summing up this is an area which is unique because it seems one of very few areas in the borough that is not in a CPZ which in my language means the area's parking is not controlled. I therefore feel that the public are being misled and are being towed away when infact parking regulations are being neglected. I would suggest that the towaway vehicle be stopped entering this area until it is looked at in detail.

 

I appreciate your reply but as you mentioned

"I am unable to refer you to the regulation that you would be contravening as I am not conversant with the Highways laws, as this is not my area of work."

 

I request that this gets passed to the relevant department who can give the answers because if someone at the council is allowing vehicles to be towed away then someone at the council must know the regulations that are being contravened.

 

I hope to get a detailed reply. I will consider my next course of action upon reply.

 

kind regards

mahharg

Quote

To: mahharg

Sent: Wednesday, May 27,

Subject: RE: Parking in xxxxxxxxxxxt (uncontrolled Zone)

 

 

Dear mahharg

 

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I am unable to help you any further with your enquiry. As I have stated in my previous response, we will deal with the matters you have raised as soon as possible.

 

The fact still remains that should you park in an area where there is a parking restriction, identified by yellow line(s) or signage there is the risk of your vehicle being towed as I have explained to you in my response.

 

Thank you once again for your enquiry.

 

Your sincerely,

 

Customer Services Manager

 

Quote

From: mahharg

Sent: 27 May 2009 14:53

To: Customer Services Manager

Subject: Re: Parking in xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (uncontrolled Zone)

 

Dear Customer Services Manager

 

Thank you for your response. I am dissapointed that you were unable to fully answer my questions or as I requested point me to the department that make the rules so that they might inform me of what parking regulations are being contravened.

 

Although I appreciate that this does not seem to be your area being, a customer service manager I would expect to be pointed in the right direction.

 

I am dissapointed that even after I informed you of the meaning of a single yellow line in my previous response and the fact that no restriction plate is present and it is not in a controlled zone you still state the following:

 

The fact still remains that should you park in an area where there is a parking restriction, identified by yellow line(s) or signage there is the risk of your vehicle being towed as I have explained to you in my response.

 

 

I believe that HF Homes are not abiding by official parking regulations which are laid down by parliment. Because of this I am now considering taking the matter further. Unless I recieve a more detailed reply by Friday 29th May.

 

Please be aware that any further response may be used as evidence should any legal action be necassary which I hope it doesn't have to come to.

 

kind regards

mahharg

 

Quote

To: mahharg

Sent: Wednesday, May 27,

Subject: RE: Parking in xxxxxxxxxxxt (uncontrolled Zone)

Dear mahharg

 

The land you are referring to is a Council Estate which is private land, and we do not have to comply with any highway laws or regulations. The parking arrangements on the estate were agreed in consulattion with the residents on the estate, as a result there are no standard regulations which apply. It is therefore the responsibility of residents to inform their visitors of any restrictive parking arrangements on the estate. I believe I have responded to all your queries and I therefore consider this matter closed.

 

Should you however wish to take this matter further, you are entitled to do so, as I believe I have done my best to help you with your enquiry.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Customer Services Manager

The questions here are:

1) Is the Customer service manager right that they don't have to abide by any parking regulatios?

 

2) If the council estate is private land should it not state at the entrance that it is private?

(there is a board at the entrance stating the name of the estate and a diagram but no words relating to it being private)

 

As mentioned previously the only notices relating to parking include the following "Towing Zone warning vehicles causing an obstruction or parked in a residents bay without dispalying a valid permit release fee £125" in the area 30 or so bays that I am concerned about there is no signage at all apart from on the other side of the road where there are garages.

 

I would appreciate some advice/suggestion on this as to what I should do next.

 

mahharg

[Jamberson]

The guy didn't say they don't have to abide by "any" regulations - he said not by "any highway laws or regulations". He means the standard legal requirements for on-street parking don't apply off-street and in this sense, yes he is correct. However there are still regulations which do need to be observed, which you address with your queries about signage.

 

I honestly don't see what you are bothered about. Say, for example, you are correct about the need for an entrance saying "private". All you will do is compel the council to erect a sign, at the expense of the taxpayer. What does that achieve for you?

 

You conclude by asking for suggestions on what you do next. What is it you want to do? Park in the residents' spaces even though you aren't a resident? The only sensible advice would be to park somewhere else. You may have a legal case to contest the fees if you are towed, because the signs are faded, but really, why go down that route? Surely it's more hassle than it's worth.

[lamma]

If its not by regulations (TRO, TSRGD , off street order, CPZ etc) then it has to be by contract. That contract could be separate or part of a rental or housing agreement. And so the fun begins, what contractual obligations do the residents have (and are they enforceable by the Council) and what about non-residents who cannot be party to any written contract ? And what of new residents they cannot be bound by this 'consultation' - and a consultation is NOT a contract in any event. Start FOIing their asses off, you have done an excellent job of getting them to paint themselves in a corner so don't back off now. Do you follow my points? and agree with them ?

[Mr lex]

I'm with lamma on this, I often park in differant housing estates visiting friends. Plymouth Concil, to be fair, are pretty good at signing CPZ's, RPZ and the like. It is not acceptable for a Customer Services Manager to say they can't help any further, thats their job, but then again, why should I expect anything other than a get-out answer

 

Lex

[mahharg]

I honestly don't see what you are bothered about. Say, for example, you are correct about the need for an entrance saying "private". All you will do is compel the council to erect a sign, at the expense of the taxpayer. What does that achieve for you?

 

What I will get is a council abiding by the rules and not exploiting residents/visitors alike by towing away unsuspecting driver's vehicles if they are wrong they must be stopped.

 

 

And what of new residents they cannot be bound by this 'consultation' - and a consultation is NOT a contract in any event. Start FOIing their asses off, you have done an excellent job of getting them to paint themselves in a corner so don't back off now. Do you follow my points? and agree with them ?

 

I am with you hence my mate is a new resident there and was never consulted. I have never done a FOI (freedom of information) request before and wouldn't know where to start and what it will show.

[mahharg]

I'm with lamma on this, I often park in differant housing estates visiting friends. Plymouth Concil, to be fair, are pretty good at signing CPZ's

 

This area in question is not even part of a CPZ!

[Jamberson]

What I will get is a council abiding by the rules and not exploiting residents/visitors alike by towing away unsuspecting driver's vehicles if they are wrong they must be stopped.

 

Understood. In that case, good on you. It looks like you've flagged up several issues with the council, and they say they will look into the matter, so perhaps progress is underway.

[Mr lex]

This area in question is not even part of a CPZ!

 

Indeed, it would appear to be a minefield !!

[mahharg]

The parking arrangements on the estate were agreed in consulattion with the residents on the estate, as a result there are no standard regulations which apply.

 

I wonder if it is worth reading my mate's new tennancy agreement to see if anything is in there about parking?.

[Mr lex]

I wonder if it is worth reading my mate's new tennancy agreement to see if anything is in there about parking?.

 

It's got to be worth a look, somehow I doubt it, it might refer to tenants parking rights but I suspect there will be no mention of visitors rights. It might be worth asking, again, this Customer Services Manager, who exactly is the responsible 'arm' of the council.

 

Lex

[mahharg]

It might be worth asking, again, this Customer Services Manager, who exactly is the responsible 'arm' of the council.

I know who it is. It is basically their own housing department with a fancy name so the council can try and pass the buck and relinquish responsibility.

[lamma]

see his agreement ! but also get plenty of pictures of the signs. close ups that we can read and a few landscape shots that show location, frequency, visibility. Check who owns the housing association, sometimes it the council but sometimes its just a list of investors. And check ownership of the land with the land registry (that costs a couple of pounds).

[mahharg]

It is frustrating because if it was on the highway then I half know the rules but being off road makes it confusing.