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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Mackenzie Hall. Do any of you know of them?


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I feel really sorry for all the people who dont know about this site, and end up paying these people..!

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I recieved first contact from them this morning, by letter rather than card, although my case is slightly different from most mentioned here in two ways.

 

It may be a valid debt that I owe.

and

It's for £38 not hundreds or thousands.

 

They claim that "despite repeated requests for payment" etc - this is in fact the first i've heard from them.

 

Here's the rub - the charge is for a water company that I used to have an account with, and so it's possible, - not likely but possbile - that the charge is valid, and if so was only 2003, so wouldn't be statuted

 

I'm tempted to simply pay it as the balance is less than £40, but having read about them on here I don't want to encourage them, if they are fishing.

 

In fact I'd rather feel guilty for not paying something I owe, if it means they leave me alone in future.

I have visions of them rubbing their hands and saying,

"We asked him for £40, he gave us £40. and we know where he lives.

Let's ask him for a £100, and see what happens"

 

 

If I simply lay low, do you think they'll pursue it.

Ultimately I reckon not, as the balance is so low that surely it would not be cost effective for them.

However, I can't afford to clear it until next month, and certainly can't afford court charges over and above the balance.

 

What should I do.

 

PS. I HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THEM IN ANY WAY AS YET

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Ignore MHall and their stupid deadlines. You are not bound by whatever they say.

 

I would be unhappy at the thought of paying any money to them too so if you think this money may well be owed contact the water company direct. Mhall are probably collecting on behalf of them anyway - they had a contract with Northumbrian water some time agao which attracted criticism from watchdogs.

 

Contact the company, tell them their collectors have been in touch, tell them you are unhappy at the way they have written to you (and remind them they are still responsible for the actions of their debt collectors) and ask if there's any truth in what MHall say. If there is ask them for the status of the debt tio check no illegal charges and fees have been added and offer to pay.

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hyde2612

 

I would not even give it the time of day no matter how small it is. Personally i think there is more behind this. Feel a little guilty and ignore. You probably were over charged in the first place by the water company so may not of owed them anything in the first place. Just say that to yourself.

MH Chasing £38.00 are they that desperate, don't trust anything they do.

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hyde2612

 

I would not even give it the time of day no matter how small it is. Personally i think there is more behind this. Feel a little guilty and ignore. You probably were over charged in the first place by the water company so may not of owed them anything in the first place. Just say that to yourself.

MH Chasing £38.00 are they that desperate, don't trust anything they do.

 

Ignore MHall and their stupid deadlines. You are not bound by whatever they say.

 

I would be unhappy at the thought of paying any money to them too so if you think this money may well be owed contact the water company direct. Mhall are probably collecting on behalf of them anyway - they had a contract with Northumbrian water some time agao which attracted criticism from watchdogs.

 

Contact the company, tell them their collectors have been in touch, tell them you are unhappy at the way they have written to you (and remind them they are still responsible for the actions of their debt collectors) and ask if there's any truth in what MHall say. If there is ask them for the status of the debt tio check no illegal charges and fees have been added and offer to pay.

 

Thanks both of you.

 

I'll ignore and see if they stop chasing.

Assuming if they bother to keep chasing £38 it's a genuine debt and will contact Northumbrian Water directly.

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If your account was with Northumbrian Water and MHall are chasing you for this small amount lodge a complaint with Ofwat, the water regulator. A shot across the bows of Northumbrian Water by Ofwat may cause them to look again at their debt collecting procedures and then perhaps that shiny sign will have to be taken down sooner than the directors would like.

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Hi, well I am glad I looked on here. I first heard of them cos they sent me one of those "this is not junk mail" thing thru the door that someone else mentioned, and it was regarding a Barclaycard account that I ran up TEN years ago !! Despite not hearing anything from Barclaycard direct for years, I decided they must have written the debt off (as happened to my friend).

 

Anyway I now pay my debts through National Debtline, and pay 1 set monthly standing order, however MH STILL keep calling me at work (how did they get my number? I certainly didn't give it to them!), and posting me letters.

 

I am going to contact National Debtline again to see if they can somehow do something.

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I am going to contact National Debtline again to see if they can somehow do something.

 

send a letter to Mhall stating that you wish for them to communicate in writing only and not via the telephone, failure to adhere to this request is a criminal offence. Also state that it is an unfair practice under the OFT guidance for them not to work with any organisations you are using to help you with your debts be it NDL or one of their DMP partners (payplan or cccs)

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it was regarding a Barclaycard account that I ran up TEN years ago !! Despite not hearing anything from Barclaycard direct for years,

 

How long ago is it since you last acknowledged (in writing) or paid money on the debt? If it's over 6 years, then you'll be able to invoke the Limitations Act - have a look at this page.

 

Once you've advised MH that it's statute-barred, unless they can prove that you've ackowledged the debt in writing or made a payment on it, they should not pursue it.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Thanks for that. But I did already write to them and politely asked them to stop calling me at work, yet they have rung me again today. I also said in the letter "as you know, my debts are paid directly from Payplan so you have no reason to keep calling/writing to me". Obviously this has fallen on deaf ears! Ironically though, they have a "complaints" email address on their letterhead ! In fact, their letter was headed "BROKEN ARRANGEMENT" in Red letters - talk about wanting to frighten you ! I owed Barclaycard originally £500 but as they didn't contact me for nearly 10 years I figured it had been wrote off. So for the last few months I've been paying this MHall via Payplan ( who didn't advise me otherwise, to be honest). So am I legally supposed to pay them now? I wish I had seen this website sooner ! I also read on here that I can ask to see my original credit agreement, and if they are unable to supply me with it I am not entitled to pay. Is that correct?

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as they didn't contact me for nearly 10 years I figured it had been wrote off. So for the last few months I've been paying this MHall via Payplan ( who didn't advise me otherwise, to be honest). So am I legally supposed to pay them now?

 

I would read the link I posted in my reply above and take the actions it states there first. If there was at least a six-year gap without payment or you acknowledging the debt in writing (that rule for communication is strictly about you writing to them, it doesn't matter how many times barclaycard wrote to you :)), then making payments by mistake now won't necessarily mean that you have to pay it. You might have to call National Debtline to make sure...

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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oh dear. Well it's just the last few months I've been paying them/writing to them etc. My debts currently total £7000 with several firms, and they receive £12 per month from me and have done for about a year now. I guess there's no comeback on my part then? Although I could still ask for the original credit agreement. If they cannot produce a copy of that, is there still anything I can do? Barclaycard have never made contact with me, and apparently the Creditor name is Cabot Financial Europe - I'd never heard of them !

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I would read the link I posted in my reply above and take the actions it states there first. If there was at least a six-year gap without payment or you acknowledging the debt in writing (that rule for communication is strictly about you writing to them, it doesn't matter how many times barclaycard wrote to you :)), then making payments by mistake now won't necessarily mean that you have to pay it. You might have to call National Debtline to make sure...

 

Cheers

 

Michael

 

Once a debt is statute barred it will ALWAYS be statute barred regardless of any acknowledgement or payment.

Hope this helps J

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indebt2everyone

 

If i were you i would request evidence from MH to who they are collecting the debt for. If they do not give you any info i personally would stop paying them. Its like giving money to someone you do not know for nothing and achieve nothing at the end of it.

Imagine you pay off all this money then another company like MH come collecting for the same debt. Worth thinking about. Make them prove you owe the money otherwise you know my opinion. Good luck and for the future you will be able to call yourself cashflow.

 

gerarddobbin

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Thank you for that gerrarddobbin ! I have just checked the National Debtline website and this is what they quote. Looks like I'm screwed then....

 

What to do if a creditor contacts you after six years

 

Don't admit to owing the money

Once you agree to owing the outstanding amount then you are required to pay the debt back. If a payment is made, even after a 6-year gap, the Limitations Act 1980 won't be enforceable and the debt will have to be paid back.

If a creditor, who you haven't had any communication with for 6 years contacts you about the debt you should write to them quoting the Limitations Act 1980. For more information and advice contact Payplan.

 

Unsecured debt

 

You may have assumed that your creditor has "written-off" a debt if you have not heard from them for a long period. In many cases, it could be down to your failure to inform them of a change of address, but the debt will still exist and creditors are entitled to chase the debt indefinitely (even after the debt has become Statute Barred), however they can only use the legal system to recover the monies for up to 6 years after the last payment was made to the account.

Remember, creditors are still able to pursue an unsecured debt if:

  • They have previously obtained a judgement against you (a CCJ);
  • You have made a payment to the account within the last 6 years (this includes anyone else named on the credit agreement)
  • You have established any contact with the creditor (this can be a phone call or letter to request a balance or change your details), except to deny that the debt exists.

If a creditor continues to contact you after accepting that a debt is Statute Barred and you have stated that you no longer intend to pay the debt, you may be able to claim harassment contrary to section 40 (1) of the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

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oh dear. Well it's just the last few months I've been paying them/writing to them etc. My debts currently total £7000 with several firms, and they receive £12 per month from me and have done for about a year now. I guess there's no comeback on my part then? Although I could still ask for the original credit agreement. If they cannot produce a copy of that, is there still anything I can do? Barclaycard have never made contact with me, and apparently the Creditor name is Cabot Financial Europe - I'd never heard of them !

 

If there's a six-year gap involved, the best bet is to firstly approach it from the Limitations Act angle as posted above - you then put the onus of proof on them to show that you either wrote to acknowledge or paid during a 6 year period (ignore the last 12months payments unless the first one cuts into a 6 year period). Whilst it's unlikely that they will have the original agreement, they might just have, which would blow that argument out of the water.

 

Ok, you've paid them for 12 months, and that might just have to be put down to experience, but if the Limitations Act applies, there's no need to be paying any more. In my experience, you'll have to really firmly tell Payplan that you don't want to pay MH again (and explain why), otherwise they'll just carry on making the payments!

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Thank you for that gerrarddobbin ! I have just checked the National Debtline website and this is what they quote. Looks like I'm screwed then....

 

That's from the Payplan site - but it's not right, sequenci's confirmed (above) what I suspected (thanks sequenci). Plus, the National Debtline site states different to Payplan - given my previous experiences with Payplan, I'd trust the NDL one as PP really don't have a clue about the Consumer Credit Act or Limitations Act.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

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Thanks you guys. Well you're absolutely right. I rang National Debtline last night and they told me that these people cannot demand money if neither me nor them had made in contact in 6 years (it's actually 12 when I worked it out!!). So they said I can either a: continue paying them thru Payplan as per my current arrangement of b: write a letter to them explaining that is statute barred and unless they can prove otherwise, the debt will no longer be paid. I also need to tell Payplan the situation and get them to cancel the payment to them. Needless to say I WILL be taking the latter of these two options !! The guy at National Debtline really put my mind at rest and said it was run of the mill for them to send threatening letters. He also said that if they keep calling me at work that is harrassment, and he's sending me a leaflet on how to deal with that !

 

Cheers! I'll keep you posted of anymore correspondence from them.

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This is a letter template which you can send to them. Just copy and paste and enter your own details.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

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That £38 will help pay for the big shiny sign that Mac Hall have just put up on their crumblin 70s office building which is due to be demolished at some point in the next year.

 

 

s*ithole of a buliding suits the image.

 

The BEST way to deal with them is to ignore them , contact the client/creditor directly and complain about the way mckenzie hall have (mis)treated you. Enough complaints will see them lose the contract for that client.

 

If the debt is genuine and you pay the client/creditor directly then mckenzie hall will just claim the commission anyway without having to do any work. DO NOT pay while the debt is with them. Normally they will have a debt for 6 months or so before it is passed elsewhere. Pay once it gets to that stage so when the client/creditor looks at the stats (which agency collected what - ) mckenzie hall will look poor and eventually will lose the contract.

 

Look how many views this thread has had...enough bad publicity should see them start to lose money and disappear. Anyone searching for them in a search engine comes up with this and their absolutely groundbreaking , breathtakingly amazing website. :rolleyes:

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