Are we doing this right

[dori2o]

Hi,Thanks Godpikachu.

 

The ET1 has already been filed and accepted by the employment tribunal.

 

Should I send them the transcript of the call or wait for the Case Management hearing.

[godpikachu]

yes, state that you wish this to be used as evidence, as such he will be provided with a copy of it as well.

[ErikaPNP]

I got as far as seeing your name live on print on the internet and stopped. Please remove your personal details from the transcript.

[dori2o]

Looking at the orders the tribunal has laid down, we have to complete our document disclosure before 6 May 2009.

 

Now, we have a few items to list, but I have a question.

 

The employer is claiming that they followed the correct proceedures when making my wife redundant, and contest that they just gave her a letter ojne day saying sorry but your now redundant, and with their response to the claim they sent a load of made up letters that invited my wife to meetings, claimed they wree sent following these meetings etc.

 

Now when the tribunal sent my wife the response fropm the respondant, they included copies of these letters.

 

Now our basis for the claim is that my wife never had any idea she was being made redundant until she went into work on 30 January this year and was handed a letter by the manager telling her she had been made redundant. No other employee had any idea redundancies were on the cards, and when my wife went into the shop the next day, the women behind the counter were asking my wife if she wanted to swap shifts with them, before my wife had a chance to tell them what happened. This proves that there was no consultation. Unfortunately the employees who are left are too scared of the manager to say anything.

 

What I want to knoe is, do we include these copies of letters as part of our disclosure, considering our claim is that she never received these?

 

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Sorry for rambling but I've had a few Morgans Spiced on the rocks.

[elche]

I believe that if the R wants these in the bundle then you may end up with an 'unagreed' bundle. I suppose this may have to be dealt with at a pre-trial hearing.

 

If they end up in the bundle, what about a witness statement from C disputing the fact that documents number X, X and X were ever sent. R is requested to provide evidence of how, when and by whom such documents were sent etc ....

 

Che

[dori2o]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

 

I'm not bothered about them being in the bundle (there is enough evidence in the letters to show they have been written after the tribunal claim had been issued), but do I need to disclose the fact that we have a copy of them, despite the only copy beiong the ones that were attached to the R's response to the ET1 form.

 

The only reason we have these letters is because the ET sent them to us, not because the employer sent them.

[elche]

Well if the ET sent the letters to you, then they and R know you have them.

 

I definitely would not lie about something that R can prove as this could adversely affect your credibility which could impact on your whole claim.

 

Just make it clear, that you allege that the first time you saw them was upon receipt off the ET3.

 

Good luck

 

Che

[Jason F]

I don't see that those letters are part of your disclosure. What is the order for disclosure? Is it anything upon which you intend to rely? Those letters will form part of the Respondent's disclosure.

 

I'd save the fact that you know that they were made post termination until cross examining the witness who "wrote" them if I were you.

[Fiscalawareness]

Hi just reading about these so called meetings,

 

sorry about spelling to much wine

 

as your probably aware and would have covered the HR dept has to follow a set guideline and have meetings with all staff and discuss the option of redundantcy

 

then they need to discuss if you would be williing to take volentary and if not how they are going to deteremine fairly who stays and who goes.

 

In this meeting there should be your line manager or simular and personal and notes should be taken

 

Now wheres the notes

 

Sounds like you could drive abus through there so called system

 

it must be shown to be fair normally based on competance and appraisels and one to ones and Performance that need to be measured.

 

Without a fiar and transparent sysstem they are in trouble.

 

Wish you luck

 

James

[Jason F]

A consultation is required, but there are circumstances where the DDP and GP do not apply.. These are rare though.

 

What do they claim your wife did in receipt of these letters? Might I suggest that you make an application for the Statistics Files of these documents which you contest, on the grounds that you do not believe that they were sent or indeed in existance before these proceedings. I'd also ask the Respondent to provide full details of when/where these letters were sent, including the recorded delivery slips.

 

Oh, and does the letter of 30th Jan refer to any other letter/document etc?

[dori2o]

Hi sorry for not replying sooner.

 

Jason to answer your question the letter of 30 Jan does not refer to any other letter/meeting or anything else.

 

Now, my wifes employer wants a meeting to discuss her employment tribunal claim, and to possibly make an offer for settlement.

 

We have calculated with the help of CAB that her loss is approx £4k.

 

We are going to have this meeting on Sunday and our friend, a Union convenor at his work, has said he will come with us.

 

Now if he makes an offer, do we have to accept/decline this there and then, or should he give us time to think about it?

 

If we decline the offer will this look bad with the tribunal?

 

Assuming our claim is for approx 4£, due to unfair dismissal, no proceedures followed, no meetings, no warning, no holiday pay paid, loss of earnings from date made redundant to present day, possible future loss of 16hrs per week for 6 months in todays climate, plus compensatory award (of 25% of the claim issued at the courts discretion) where failure to follow the statutory Procedure in respect of the dismissal will also impact on this compensatory award as, in such circumstances, Employment Tribunals must usually penalise the employer for its failure to follow the statutory Procedure by increasing the compensatory award by 10% and may increase that award by up to 50%. What should we be looking at as a top line for settlement?

 

Any help appreciated.

[Jason F]

Ah no referral in any other communication is good news.

 

Has he said he wants to make an offer for settlement? Has he stated in any way that this is without prejudice? IF so, I'd suggest that you reply but advise that for you it is without prejudice save as to costs.

 

No, do not accept there and then unless it's for far more than you want... Though even then I'd suggest that you make a long and proper list of what you can claim for.

 

If you look bad this CAN be a problem THOUGH the whole point of without prejudice is that the court do not see it, hence my question about save as to costs - the reason for this statement is that if you decline an offer which is more than the Tribunal could reasonably award you then it can be used as a lever to try and get their costs. Hence my point about you putting it in your letter, so that if they offer a stupidly low amount you then have reserved the right to advise the court that was the case.

 

You say 4K, have you added up the totality of all her pay etc.. to get to the 4k figure? Bear in mind that, with evidence, Tribunals CAN award longer than six months to find another job (i.e. in the current market!). Also, have you added in the £190 or so for the loss of the ERA in any new job? The uplift is, I am afraid, a complete stab in the dark, with Tribunals being utterly hopelessly inconsistent, and the EAT will rarely interfere. So one could award 50% for the same thing another would award 10%. There are so few cases as well which give any guidance on this. Did they follow the DDP at all? If not, you would in theory be looking at 30-40% reasonably especially if you've followed the appeal process to the letter (though from what you have said above they are alleging they have followed the procedures and will seek to use that to minimise the uplift). Bear in mind also their costs to defend this claim. You can (and I have) argue that if it costs them 10k to defend a claim they will lose, then you can split that 50/50 in the settlement and they can give you 5k for the lawyers fees thus they still save 5k........ It is one to use depending on how the battle is going.

 

A top line figure? Only you can decide, but I'd look at a bottom line figure, then look at the maximum you could possibly get.

 

Do you have house insurance with legal protection which will cover this? (plenty do). Your car insurance may also cover it, worth a check if you haven't done so.

[dori2o]

Can anyone help.

 

We have been to the meeting, they claim they have spoken to 2 solicitors and 1 barrister and all have advised them that looking at their evidence this is an open and closed case that they will 100% win, and have offered to represent them on a no win no fee basis.

 

During the meeting certain things were discussed including the meetings they supposedly had with my wife, where for one of the days they claim there was a meeting with my wife, she was not in work. They also claim they have minutes from all the meetings which are signed. Although my wife has not signed them as my wife was not there.

 

They claim that as the letters they have supposedly given my wife were given to her by hand, there was no need to obtain proof of receipt.

 

They claim that from my £4000 claim their barrister has said that the most the court will allow of my claim is £1800, and they have made a full and final offer for settlement of £1500

 

My wife is thinking of accepting as she is worried that they will do anything to win if it goes to tribunal.

 

I on the other hand think that as they cannot possibly have any signed minutes from the meetings, no confirmation of receipt of the letters they claim they sent, and also due to discrepancies within the letters I think we could win.

 

But it is my wifes money and she must have final say.

 

We have until 10pm tomorrow to accept their offer.

 

Can anyone suggest our next step.

[Rooster-UK]

Elche and Ell-Enn both off line at the moment, but bumping thread to move it back to the top of the page.

[dori2o]

Thanks Rooster

[Jason F]

1. Ask them for a copy of counsel's written advice. No lawyer EVER says you will 100% win. Even with the best will in the world, and the best evidence, and the best lawyer, there is always a chance in court for it all to go wrong...... And it often does! So, if they can provide you with a copy of counsel's written advice...........

 

2. If they have signed minutes that means they will fabricate evidence, which means that when the Tribunal look at it and find that to be the case, the CPS can get involved, after all, it's Perverting the Course of Justice.... Asking why your wife never signed etc.. would be a nice starting point as to the fact this evidence was fabricated (but saving that for later of course, not putting them on notice right now). That day she was not in work, was she ill, or on holiday ? Does she have evidence i.e. if she had a GP appointment or a receipt for a purchase on that day.. Just a way of destroying their credibility under cross examination..

 

3. Your wife has no knowledge of these letters etc. so you can ask for the statistic files to be disclosed...... If they refuse, seek an order.

 

4. No-one can honestly tell you to proceed or to accept the money. To my mind however there is a pride and justice issue at stake, I wouldn't let them get away with this. But ultimately it's up to you and your wife.

 

5. When people are not telling the truth, it's easy to trip them up, destory their credibility, then put your case to the Tribunal.

 

Bear in mind their legal fees to even defend this claim... Oh, do you have house insurance or car insurance which may cover this?

 

Also, a meeting yesterday and an offer of 24 hours, that sounds like they are simply trying to pressure you into making a poor decision. Remember that they can always settle even at the door of the hearing. But in the meantime you can get more evidence against them (or show that they have faked evidence!! That tends not to go down well with ETs!!)..