Urgent help with defence please

[Camster]

Hi,

 

We have a problem and I would most appreciate any advice and/or CPR 16(5) templates. We moved to West Berkshire in May 2008 due to work and given the current housing market, decided to rent. The property is a nice one and the rent, significant.

 

Barely 2 weeks into the tenancy, the lettings agency had a guy over who, without any notice whatsoever, trespassed on the property at about 9pm. We were upstairs, tired from cleaning the property the whole day (it was given in a bad state) when the door bell rang. Not expecting anyone, we ignored it. We then heard noises and upon checking, found an employee of the lettings agency wandering within the property. His excuse for trespassing at 9pm was that he was looking for the "to let" board which was set at the top of the driveway.

 

I had enough by then. I made a police report. I also requested that we end the tenancy. There were so many issues (a 2-page "dettails of complaints" document). The back garden, though big, had knee-high grass, cobwebs all over the place, dampness and mould in the main bathroom, exposed live wires in the kitchen, the heating system gave this loud knocking noise when switched on and there wasn't a valid gas certificate.

 

The lettings agency said that I was contracted to 12 months at the property at the rent of £1,400 per month and that was the end of it.

 

I sought legal advice. The first firm told me that I was stuck to the tenancy agreement, but could sue them for breaches of this agreement. A second firm told me that I could terminate the agreement due to their breaches.

 

The lettings agency and landlord have also made libelous and racist remarks - I have e-mail proof of these, though I can only regurgitate their spoken words without proof of the slanderous bit.

 

I then decided to withold rent, and now have to defend myself in court. It has to do with a defence plea in accordance with CPR 16(5).

 

What should I do? I have 2 weeks to file a defence. I have full and unconditional diplomatic (not consular) immunity. Should I invoke this? I was told that despite all their wrongs, my act of witholding rent means that I would lose.

 

Any feedback most welcome.

 

Thanks.

[DocH]

Hi,

 

We have a problem and I would most appreciate any advice and/or CPR 16(5) templates. We moved to West Berkshire in May 2008 due to work and given the current housing market, decided to rent. The property is a nice one and the rent, significant.

 

Barely 2 weeks into the tenancy, the lettings agency had a guy over who, without any notice whatsoever, trespassed on the property at about 9pm. We were upstairs, tired from cleaning the property the whole day (it was given in a bad state) when the door bell rang. Not expecting anyone, we ignored it. We then heard noises and upon checking, found an employee of the lettings agency wandering within the property. His excuse for trespassing at 9pm was that he was looking for the "to let" board which was set at the top of the driveway.

 

I had enough by then. I made a police report. I also requested that we end the tenancy. There were so many issues (a 2-page "dettails of complaints" document). The back garden, though big, had knee-high grass, cobwebs all over the place, dampness and mould in the main bathroom, exposed live wires in the kitchen, the heating system gave this loud knocking noise when switched on and there wasn't a valid gas certificate.

 

The lettings agency said that I was contracted to 12 months at the property at the rent of £1,400 per month and that was the end of it.

 

I sought legal advice. The first firm told me that I was stuck to the tenancy agreement, but could sue them for breaches of this agreement. A second firm told me that I could terminate the agreement due to their breaches.

 

The lettings agency and landlord have also made libelous and racist remarks - I have e-mail proof of these, though I can only regurgitate their spoken words without proof of the slanderous bit.

 

I then decided to withold rent, and now have to defend myself in court. It has to do with a defence plea in accordance with CPR 16(5).

 

What should I do? I have 2 weeks to file a defence. I have full and unconditional diplomatic (not consular) immunity. Should I invoke this? I was told that despite all their wrongs, my act of witholding rent means that I would lose.

 

Any feedback most welcome.

 

Thanks.

 

Hi Camster, welcome to the site. You will get plenty of help and support here.

 

You need to start your own thread in the Residential and Commercial Lettings section of the forum here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/residential-commercial-lettings/

 

If you're not sure how to start a new thread then please read this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

[MARTIN3030]

Moved-your own thread-please keep your posts here as its much easier for others to advise.

[Planner]

A number of issues;

 

- Guy coming into property - naughty naughty without your express consent, but trespass? - I doubt it.

 

- Police report - what did they suggest? that it was a civil matter rather than criminal?

 

- Backgarden - What condition was it in when you moved in? - did you ask for it to be attended to prior to moving in? - Its normally the tenants responsbility to maintain gardens etc.

 

- Cobwebs - Where the cobwebs present when you moved in? - did you ask for the place to be cleaned before you moved in? - Why havent you dusted?

 

- Damp/mold - Was the damp mold present when you original viewed the property? - have you reported the problem to the LL/LA - what was their response? - have you reported problem to environmental health?

 

- Exposed live wires in kitchen - where these there when you viewed property/moved in? - have you reported the problem to the LL/LA - what was their response? - have you reported problem to environmental health?

 

- Heating system noise - And?

 

- Gas Certificate - Definatley should have one of these.

 

I hope you havent picked the choiciest items from your two page list to post here?

 

- Emails - definatley a police matter.

 

You had no right to withold rent without following correct procedure and in my opinnion you have no reason to seek to break the contract early. I suspect you are going to recieve a hefty bill for unpaid rent and legal fees from the court. I suggest you try and settle now if you can before the hearing date.

[Steve__M]

I agree with Planner and your first legal advice.

 

Who was your second source of legal advice, and what did you tell them that made them think that the contract could be terminated?

 

What has happened does not sound like a fundamental breach of the agreement. For trespass, you'd only be entitled to damages which in this case are virtually zero. For the other issues you'd at most be entitled to force them to pay to rectify the problems.

 

I don't know anything about slander etc. so I can't comment on the slander/racist emails.

[Camster]

Hi Steve_M & Planner,

 

That person was inside the house for a good 10 minutes!!! How do I know? I found him inside the house! It could have been anyone! And board collecting at close to 9pm??? The police were more keen to explain the "technical difference" between" tresspassing, breaking-and-entering and burglary. Zero damages? Not even a "sorry"? I guess our well-being is of no consequence. Foreigners, right?

 

The inventory clearly states that the place was like a "jungle" (quote from inventory) and that the place would be clean when we moved in.

 

There are 2 switches - CH for central heating and HW for hot water. Switch on CH. Nothing happens. Heating only comes on when CH and HW are both on. When the heating is on, the whole house rattles! Can I post video clips? Hear it for yourself. See if you can sleep at night with the noise!

 

The second law firm was recommended by the first. The first relayed the story to the second, I made an appointment to see the second, and they told me as such. I told them nothing - they suggested contract termination.

 

Nope, not the choiciest! The tenancy agreement clearly states that the landlord is responsible for trees, and there are many. Huge branches fell in front of the garage while I waited for it to open. I was very lucky! And the back garden, there were rats running all around.

 

They basically did nothing despite my complaints.

 

Based on your comments, it is clear that the laws of this country are abysmal at best.

 

Looks like time to inform the embassy!

 

Thanks.

 

 

P.S. Planner, if you have read my initial post, you would have picked up that we had to clean the place ourselves because the landlord and letting agency did not bother - despite our complaints. We even had to get a power washer to wash down the extensive paving as it was covered with mold and lichen.

[Camster]

I plan to put in my defence - just got a book on civil proceedings. With this CPR 16(5) defence letter, do I need to attach the relevant e-mails, tenancy agreement & inventory, etc.? I'd rather do this during the trial. What are your thoughts? Or should I just go with what the lawyer says?

[Planner]

Hi Steve_M & Planner,

 

That person was inside the house for a good 10 minutes!!! How do I know? I found him inside the house! It could have been anyone! And board collecting at close to 9pm??? The police were more keen to explain the "technical difference" between" tresspassing, breaking-and-entering and burglary. Zero damages? Not even a "sorry"? I guess our well-being is of no consequence. Foreigners, right?

 

The inventory clearly states that the place was like a "jungle" (quote from inventory) and that the place would be clean when we moved in.

 

There are 2 switches - CH for central heating and HW for hot water. Switch on CH. Nothing happens. Heating only comes on when CH and HW are both on. When the heating is on, the whole house rattles! Can I post video clips? Hear it for yourself. See if you can sleep at night with the noise!

 

The second law firm was recommended by the first. The first relayed the story to the second, I made an appointment to see the second, and they told me as such. I told them nothing - they suggested contract termination.

 

Nope, not the choiciest! The tenancy agreement clearly states that the landlord is responsible for trees, and there are many. Huge branches fell in front of the garage while I waited for it to open. I was very lucky! And the back garden, there were rats running all around.

 

They basically did nothing despite my complaints.

 

Based on your comments, it is clear that the laws of this country are abysmal at best.

 

Looks like time to inform the embassy!

 

Thanks.

 

 

P.S. Planner, if you have read my initial post, you would have picked up that we had to clean the place ourselves because the landlord and letting agency did not bother - despite our complaints. We even had to get a power washer to wash down the extensive paving as it was covered with mold and lichen.

 

Im sorry you dont like our answers. Just a few clarifications for you;

 

1) I didnt know you where 'foregin' and its pretty irrelevant to the tenancy situation you describe. My answer would have been the same if you where from Manchester or Mars.

 

2) I didnt ask if you had cleaned the property, I asked why you hadn't dusted the cobwebs away again if they have subsequently reappeared.

 

I think you would be best talking to your embassy and invoking that diplomatic immunity, because regardless of the problems with the place, there are certain procedures to follow before witholding rent, which you appear not have done. Subsequently a judge will likley find against you.

 

Can I ask, in your country (which ever that maybe), is the first port of call in resolving tenancy disputes to not pay the rent?

[Camster]

Im sorry you dont like our answers. Just a few clarifications for you;

 

1) I didnt know you where 'foregin' and its pretty irrelevant to the tenancy situation you describe. My answer would have been the same if you where from Manchester or Mars.

 

2) I didnt ask if you had cleaned the property, I asked why you hadn't dusted the cobwebs away again if they have subsequently reappeared.

 

I think you would be best talking to your embassy and invoking that diplomatic immunity, because regardless of the problems with the place, there are certain procedures to follow before witholding rent, which you appear not have done. Subsequently a judge will likley find against you.

 

Answers? More like judgements without even reading properly the initial post! Your Point (1) confirms and justifies this. One is foreign if there is an embassy involved! It is relevant - the prejudiced remarks??? The landlord made further false statements to the neighbours. Is this not a smear of my impeccable reputation? And yes, I have proof.

 

And as for Point (2), nice touch adding "subsequently" and "again". The place was handed over in a bad state. Which is clear violation of the tenancy agreement. All these terms (jungle, cobwebs, etc.) are present in the inventory.

 

I have followed procedures, as per:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/residential-commercial-lettings/74057-disrepairs-privately-rented-accommodation.html

Well, not to the word. I only got one plumber to quote.

 

In my country, I am certain sure (though I have my own place) that such a situation would not arise in the first place! Plus, rent is paid way in advance - bi-annually or annually. Again, please read the initial post. Witholding rent was the last resort (after effecting the bits in the link above) after the landlord/lettings agency non-action.

[Planner]

No they are answers not judgements. Answers based on what you have written. I read the post properly, does embassy automatically mean 'foregin'? - that might be quite obvious to some like yourself who deals with the subject day-in day-out with diplomatic immunity etc but not to someone like me or I suspect other posters on here who dont. I note that you actually dont mention 'embassy' in your first post, so to use one of your phrases, nice touch adding it.

 

I would reiterate that natioanlity has nothing to do with tenancy law, you obviously have a chip on your shoulder about it. My answer would have been the same if you had been from Peckham or Pluto.

 

I am glad to hear you county has such a fabulous letting system, we could defiantley take a leaf out of certain other countries books as to that regard. However, as we are talking about English/Welsh tenancy and contract law, you are likley to loose regardless of what ever defence you submit based on what you have written. I hope you dont as the LL/LA have obviously treated you unfairly, however how you have responded (witholding rent) cannot be justified by the problems you have experienced, an 'eye for an eye' approach doesnt work in English/Welsh Tenancy and contract law.

[Camster]

Hi Planner,

 

We agree to disagree.

 

Call them whatever you want - they're definitely not "answers".

 

BTW, one can only have diplomatic or consular immunity (even more clear) if one is a foreign national in any country. And yes, embassy definitely denotes foreign. There is no British High Commission or British Embassy here In other countries, yes. Anyone (or a very, very big majority of people) who have been on holiday, overseas assignment, etc. in a different country would know this. But we are way off topic now.

 

Tenancy "ought" to have nothing to do with nationality or creed or colour, but in this country, it does!!! Please see:

BBC NEWS | England | Agencies 'happy to discriminate'

Chip on shoulder??? Or realist (or pessimist)???

 

It is not "an eye for an eye". I informed of issues in May/June. They only decided to send a plumber in Dec - after the first hearing, and don't even care that these issues are still there!!! I got tired of pursuing, so it's their turn to be pro-active. More like "passing the baton"

 

And I am so glad to be above the laws of England & Wales!!! At least I know what to do know.

[Planner]

Hi Planner,

 

BTW, one can only have diplomatic or consular immunity (even more clear) if one is a foreign national in any country. And yes, embassy definitely denotes foreign. There is no British High Commission or British Embassy here In other countries, yes. Anyone (or a very, very big majority of people) who have been on holiday, overseas assignment, etc. in a different country would know this. But we are way off topic now.

 

Tenancy "ought" to have nothing to do with nationality or creed or colour, but in this country, it does!!! Please see:

BBC NEWS | England | Agencies 'happy to discriminate'

Chip on shoulder??? Or realist (or pessimist)???

 

It is not "an eye for an eye". I informed of issues in May/June. They only decided to send a plumber in Dec - after the first hearing, and don't even care that these issues are still there!!! I got tired of pursuing, so it's their turn to be pro-active. More like "passing the baton"

 

And I am so glad to be above the laws of England & Wales!!! At least I know what to do know.

 

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the low down on diplomatic immunity etc

 

In terms of the link you have posted it relates to the granting of tenancies and not the post signing situation you are in which relates to tenancy LAW. If it makes you feel any better agents also discriminate on the basis of sexuality, age and economic situation to name but a few.

 

Its a shame you have decided to weave the issue of race in to a reasonably straight forward thread. I doubt playing this card to the judge, if thats your intention, will wash, as they are likley to see right thorough it as I have.

 

Never the less I wish you luck with your case, you are fortunate that you have a perverbial 'get of jail free card' in terms of the court case, a tenant without such immunity would have to face the consequences of their actions.

 

I dont know how the 'immunity' works, but you should check with your embassay if you can invoke it retrospectivley i.e. after your case has been heard (on the off chance you win) or if you need to use it now, to nip the case in the bud.

[Camster]

I am not weaving anything in. I made it clear from the start that the LA made racist comments (e-mail, remember? are you sure you really read the initial post). I am suing on this and more (there's also the defamation bit, etc.).

 

You are distorting the story. No one is playing the race card. Hmmm... one might say that you are, with your suggestive remarks:

Its a shame you have decided to weave the issue of race in to a reasonably straight forward thread. I doubt playing this card to the judge, if thats your intention, will wash, as they are likley to see right thorough it as I have.

 

I know the law - immune to both civil and criminal proceedings. I cannot be done - even for a parking ticket!

 

LA/LL who are conniving and unethical also need to face the consequences. BTW, are you a landlord by any chance?

 

Hopefully, someone else will come along with a different point of view (not answers!).

 

Anyway, I have 2 weeks to draft my defence to their counterclaim. They can only use non-payment... but I have a lot of things to add

 

I must say though, your responses are very close to that of the LA. Are you a lettings/estate agent by any chance?

[Camster]

I doubt playing this card to the judge, if thats your intention, will wash, as they are likley to see right thorough it as I have.

 

 

BTW, you should know that the above statement can be deemed to be defamatory in nature.

[Steve__M]

In my view, Planner has been very helpful to many tenants over the time I've spent here.

 

Your remarks and allegations are unwarranted and inappropriate.

[help me kick his butt]

Here Here SteveM, Planner is a goldmine of information, like yourself.

I agree with Planner, chips and shoulders!!

[Planner]

I am not weaving anything in. I made it clear from the start that the LA made racist comments (e-mail, remember? are you sure you really read the initial post).

 

I know the law - immune to both civil and criminal proceedings. I cannot be done - even for a parking ticket!

 

 

Two points;

 

Whats racist comments got to do with being 'foregin'? In case you hadnt notice, Britain is a very multi-cutural society with ethnicities from all over the world that are third and even fourth generation British. Some of these groups are subject to racist comments but are not 'foregin'.

 

If you cant even get done for a parking ticket, then you have nothing to worry about do you.

 

Thanks for your support by the way steve_m.

[help me kick his butt]

Camster, I really think you have a problem.

If someone said to me that I had a large bottom, I would not be threatening court action.

It makes me very cross that people wave this racism card round at the drop of a hat.

My suggestion would be to "get over it". Im not suggesting that for one minute that people tolerate any type of bullying but I fear the old rule of sticks and stones has been swapped with Im goiung to sue your butt off.

Try to forget about the comments and move on in life, some things are not worth the hassle.

[help me kick his butt]

Incidently, i dont have a big bottom

[Planner]

Thanks to you as well Help Me Kick His Butt! I must have been typing when you posted!

[help me kick his butt]

Very welcome x

[Camster]

Planner,

 

The racist comments are the contents of the e-mails!!!!!

 

Well... birds of a feather...

 

Interesting to point out that despite the LL making false statements to the neighbours, etc., they all actually feel that I am in the right.

 

So, given the racist remarks by LA and LL (Caucasian), I should keep quiet? And not "wave the racist card"?

 

What utter tosh!!! Definitely birds of a feathers....

 

 

 

P.S. Do you want me to reproduce the contents of the e-mails?

[Camster]

Like I said... way off topic!!!

[Camster]

Your remarks and allegations are unwarranted and inappropriate.

 

But true!!!

[Camster]

help me kick his butt,

 

(1).

So, I should continue to live in this property, pay a four figure monthly rent, and put with with this barely habitable conditions? And put up with expensive gas bills? Why? because we're having a cold winter and the radiators barely get hot (just noisy) and the LA take 6 months to send a plumber over (right after the first hearing) but then don't care that the problem is not rectified. Buy electric heaters (which I also did), right? Is this what you mean by "get on with life"?

 

(2).

I should continue to be on the receiving end of racial abuse (those e-mail were disgusting) and "get on with life"?

 

(3).

The LA and LL are free to say anything they want, but I should "get on with life". "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me, right?" What if I were to make all sorts of defamatory and derogatory remarks against you? Which cause other people to think differently of you? What if I were to make equally disgusting racial remarks against you (for all to see)?

 

I am asking for help with my defence. Planner's view is that I should try to settle this with the LA/LL without anything further to do with the courts. In his view, it seems that one can wander into someone else's property and it's merely "naughty, naughty" - not trespassing. Despite the above, Planner suggests, "I suggest you try and settle now if you can before the hearing date."

 

Are your views the same?