Kays Catalogue agreement

[version302003]

Hi romany, on what grounds are you disputing?

 

They have complied with your cca request. They donot need to provide the original document. They only have to supply a true copy which doesnt even have to contain a signature but they did.

[keefyboy]

Sorry Chrs coming in here, Version, you say it doesn't even have to be signed, surely then that is deafeating the object of the CCA, the idea of this is to see that they have a True copy of the agreement signed by you and them ? If they have not signed it or do not have your signature on the agreement as well, then it is unenforcable by law under the CCA ?

or am I wasting my time doing exactly the same thing on another thread.

 

If what you are saying is that they don't have to show you a "True copy of a signed agreement", then anyone could write to you and say, "You owe me £10k, I want my money or else" and when you ask them for a True copy of the signed agreement then they can produce a unsigned agreement, and you have to accept that ?

[keefyboy]

And the other thing with the documents they sent Chris, are in my Eyes,

Forged signatues on an agreement, now that is grounds to see a "TRUE Copy of the aggreement" and it is a criminal offence,

 

By the way Chris did you go to the Police Station like I told you too, if so what did they say please and did you get your Crime reference number as well ?

[version302003]

Hi keefy, what they have to provide in a cca request in a true copy not a true signed copy. They will require the signed copy if it goes to court so it is in there best interests to provide it but they do not have to provide a signed agreement under a s77/78 request.

 

Have a read on this thread if you want to get a signed agreement.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

however in romany's case they have supplied the signed copy so I was simply asking on what grounds was the dispute?

 

Ps. http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt67/romany1968/2copy.png who wrote the date on that (12 - 01 - 04) under the signature?

Edited March 8, 2009 by version302003

[keefyboy]

With Regards to the date, that could have been anyone who may have been present at the time of the signing, not necessarily the person signing, but as the document "Should" have been dated at the time of signing,, normally when they print off an agreement the date is put on by the computer on the date it is printed, not 9 days earlier.

 

I have read through http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html and I have already used this on a credit card dispute and you will see on my thread they have still not supplied a request for a signed copy

 

To be fair to Chris, would you mind continuing this discussion on my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/182174-credit-card-agreements-lloyds-new-post.html

 

so we don't confuse anyone any more while reading this thread.

[romany]

Hi Version

 

What I am disputing is the fact that, I do not re-collect signing an agreement with kays, so if I did not sign an agreement then why do I have to put up with the constant harassment, plus the ongoing charges they have added to the account, all this is bother is unfortunately due to a unwanted and difficult situation I am in with my wife’s illness, that led me to be in this situation in the first place. The one thing I did sign though was for a one off electrical item that has already been paid for, the others I have put up are not my signature and the dates don’t add up either, this has led me to dispute the agreement, as they sent me a photocopy with the dodgy signatures on I decided to send them a subject to access letter plus £10 to cover, this way I can go through everything they have on me.

 

What also bothers me is that I had one letter dated the 4th of March (the first to arrive ) saying they are complying with my subject to access request and the next is a letter dated 28th ( arrived three days later ) Feb from Nationwide Debt Recovery saying they have taken over the account?

 

Hi keefyboy

 

Everything I have posted is in order of letters sent and received, I have a friend who works for the CID, who suggested I wait until I receive the documents from the

subject to access request, he also said by waiting until you have everything they have on you, you will have more evidence to dispute the agreement, and if this goes to court I then can ask for a criminal reference number he said if he was in my position he would do that, but he did say I can apply for one straight away, so I am going on what he said, as for the thread, I would like to keep this one open as it was started on Jan 28th because if anything positive comes from this situation it will hopefully help others in the same position, if I can be of any help on your thread I will oblige.

 

Thank you all

 

Chris

[keefyboy]

Sorry Chris I didn't mean to transfer everything over onto my one, what I meant was I would like Version to come and have a look at what has happened on my case, so he can see what they have said and done and maybe advise me where to go next, but we would obviously stay with you as and support you with maybe something that may come up in my thread, it is a big learning curve for us all as all the cases are different.

[version302003]

Im sorry romany, I am only trying to help. Can I still ask who dated the agreement http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...1968/2copy.png ? maybe an agent?

 

At the end of the day, they have sent a signed agreement, you do not acknowledge that it is your signature (which is different). Is that your dispute?

I am asking as you seem to be getting nowhere with them and you need to do something. From what I can see you haven't told them the acount is in dispute. If not send them the std dispute letter.

[romany]

Hi Version

 

No need to be sorry, I am very depressed with the way things are going so I do apologise if my wording sounded off, I am extremely grateful for all the help I am receiving and yes you are right I am not getting anywhere with kays, the signature and the date of signature on copy 2 is mine but I don’t know who C Donnelly is? copy 3 and 4 are not mine.

 

Today I received the subject to access documents, I will go through these today, one thing I have noticed is they didn’t send me is The original signed, executed credit agreement as requested, hopefully there will be more errors I can dispute, I will be going to my local cab tomorrow to see if they can take the case for me, I am really worried about bailiffs knocking on my door as I seen on TV.

 

Could you point me in the direction of the std dispute letter, this will hopefully stop them from adding ridiculous charges to the account, maybe I should be charging them the same amount for letter writing and phone calls?

 

Thank you all☺

 

Chris

[coolchris]

Hey mate. I went to the CAB last week and they are great. Go there ASAP. They ask the creditors to stop all charges and offer a payment based on your income and other outgoings. As far as kays sending round the bailiffs..it has to go to court first. So long as you have offered token payments then the judge will throw it out of court as you have shown you are willing to keep on top of things..even if its 5 quid. Remember..YOU are incharge not those assholes. Do NOT be intimidated or they have won. Make sure that they have not transferred your signature from any correspondence you have sent them in the past. If you can prove that..then sue their asses for forgery.

CAB....get an appointment ASAP..it will be a load of your shoulders believe me. Good Luck mate.

[keefyboy]

Hi Chris

I know what you mean about charges they whack on, and it depresses you, but soldier on mate, maybe at the end of all this you will be able to send them a bill for your letters and time etc, I tried it once and I got over £150 out of them, they were wrong big time and O wouldn't let it drop.

 

At least with your case you have got copies of something, all I have is printed on the back of their letter terms of the agreement, but they are playing around and keep finding excuses for not sending me the signature part, thats why I wanted version to pop onto my thread and see what he suggests...

 

But you keep your chin up Chris, put it into your mind "You are going to stand up to these people, I am going to win !"

[version302003]

Hi Version

 

No need to be sorry, I am very depressed with the way things are going so I do apologise if my wording sounded off, I am extremely grateful for all the help I am receiving and yes you are right I am not getting anywhere with kays, the signature and the date of signature on copy 2 is mine but I don’t know who C Donnelly is? copy 3 and 4 are not mine.

 

Today I received the subject to access documents, I will go through these today, one thing I have noticed is they didn’t send me is The original signed, executed credit agreement as requested, hopefully there will be more errors I can dispute, I will be going to my local cab tomorrow to see if they can take the case for me, I am really worried about bailiffs knocking on my door as I seen on TV.

 

Could you point me in the direction of the std dispute letter, this will hopefully stop them from adding ridiculous charges to the account, maybe I should be charging them the same amount for letter writing and phone calls?

 

Thank you all

 

Chris

 

I think C Donnelly is just an kays employee who signs their agreements, nothing to worry about. Regarding bailiffs, without a court order they cannot and willnot turn up so dont worry about that either.

 

Below is the standard dispute letter, edit to suit your own personal circumstance. You may not need it if CAB takes your case up.

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

PRINT NAME (DON'T SIGN)

[romany]

Hi All

 

Thank you for your posts, i am still in the process of reading through their documents they have on file, i will let you know the outcome, i am going to my local CAB in the afternoon ( funny times they have? ) i have copied the letter you sent version, thanks for that.

 

Fingers Crossed

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[romany]

Hi romany, on what grounds are you disputing?

 

They have complied with your cca request. They do not need to provide the original document. They only have to supply a true copy which doesnt even have to contain a signature but they did.

 

 

Hi Version

Just a thought,would me sending them the Dispute letter be of any use, as the above makes me feel it is either too late or, like you say they have complied with the request

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[version302003]

Hi Version

Just a thought,would me sending them the Dispute letter be of any use, as the above makes me feel it is either too late or, like you say they have complied with the request

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

well personally, as they have complied with your request I wouldnt but if you are disputing it then you do need to tell them it is in dispute. Maybe you could amend it to suit your own personal dispute with them? Maybe changing the 1st couple of paragraphs to suit?

Edited March 10, 2009 by version302003

[romany]

Cheers

 

Chris

[romany]

Hi All

 

Been to my local CAB yesterday and they made me an appointment for Tomorrow at 9am to discuss my situation, in the meantime, Nationwide called me last night and wanted full payment asap, i told them the situation, and i did say they were not allowed to pass on any of my debt while it is dispute, but thinking of it i haven't sent them a letter of dispute so will my request for a cca and subject to access letter come under this?

They told me they won't put on any charges until i have seen my local CAB, Slightly confused? am i in the wrong here by not saying it is dipute or have they broken the law by passing the debt on??

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[version302003]

Hi All

 

Been to my local CAB yesterday and they made me an appointment for Tomorrow at 9am to discuss my situation, in the meantime, Nationwide called me last night and wanted full payment asap, i told them the situation, and i did say they were not allowed to pass on any of my debt while it is dispute, but thinking of it i haven't sent them a letter of dispute so will my request for a cca and subject to access letter come under this?

They told me they won't put on any charges until i have seen my local CAB, Slightly confused? am i in the wrong here by not saying it is dipute or have they broken the law by passing the debt on??

 

Thanks

 

Chris

Hi chris, if they have not complied with the cca request then you should send the dispute letter and tell them the account is disputed. Acca request or a subject access request is not a dispute letter. Goodluck with CAB

[romany]

Hello All

 

Just come back from an appointment with my Local CAB, and I must say I am very disappointed with the outcome, even with all the evidence I have accumulated, the dodgy signatures and dates and so on, there answer is to send

Nationwide Debt Recovery a Budget sheet and an token offer payment of a £ 1 per month, I left there feeling like a drowning man that has been given an anchor to keep him afloat, I am straight back at the beginning.

 

Looks like Kays have won, the b******s, (pardon my French), I would like to say thank you all for all that have helped me and I hope you all get your problems sorted out.

 

Thanks Again

 

Chris

[Out4Revenge]

Hey why are you giving up? From everything I read on this thread your still along way from beaten!!

Come on, forged sigs on credit agreements = no credit agreement! end of, you've already won mate, they just don't know it yet;)

I'm not really in the know about all this yet, i'm just finished with bank charges but there are plenty of people around who do know and they'll help you win, so don't give up, it takes time, but you will win in the end, just keep fighting, one step at a time:D

[romany]

Hi

Well i thought that if the local CAB were not much help, and i don't know what to do next, i might as well give in,as i am not an expert on consumer law, have had three phone calls today from nationwide debt recovery demanding payment????????????

 

Chris

[Out4Revenge]

Hi I can't claim to be an expert but I've managed to claim back nearly 10k bank charges thanx to the help of the people on this site, you'll get plenty of help here, and more importantly support, I know it's not easy but when is anything worthwhile easy?

I'm sorry that I can't offer you the advice you need but I am absolutely certain that you will get the help off someone who knows there stuff SOON, don't give in just yet.

regarding the calls, either don't answer them if you don't know the nuber or have some fun, quote the Data Protection act to them ot the CCA, or just talk about irrelevent sh1t to them. have a read of this it'll cheer you up

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/131475-dealing-dcas-phone-calls.html

[romany]

Hi Again

 

Thank you for the link:)

 

I have been thinking over and over all day for a solution to this, is there a letter or a format i can send that could explain to kays and nationwide that i am disputing the agreement and i am also going to file a crime number, for the forged signatures. Also, why do they have a customer copy signed in my name, if I had signed an agreement then surely I would have kept the customer copy myself and Kays would not be in possession of it? In the next letter i send, I would like to add about the interest being charged and the phone call harassment to stop, and I will also make a £1 token payment to cover myself in case it goes to court?

 

I will also give them copies of all the letters i have sent them from the 1st token payment letter, so they are aware that i have been trying to sort this out, and to finish, I would like to add that if they want to go to court over this i would be very happy to oblige as i have overwhelming evidence against them and their dodgy bullying tactics.

 

To sum all of this up I have sent the following so far:

 

 

1. Token Payment offer letter (no reply)

 

 

 

2. Clear Debt Letter (no reply)

 

 

3. Credit Agreement Letter (reply within time limit, a photocopy of an electrical item agreement and two fraudulent copies with my signature on, one is a customer copy?)

 

4. Subject to access Letter (Documents received with the same photocopy’s of the agreement.

 

 

In between all of these letters being sent, I have received numerous red letters off kays saying they have been trying to contact me and have added letter charges.

The latest being Nationwide Debt recovery saying they have taken over the account from Kays and want immediate payment, and they have also made several phones calls to me over the last few days, and I have had to explain each time the situation between myself and kays.

 

What do you think??

[version302003]

well firstly dont talk on the phone ever. If you dont want the calls then get choose to refuse, a BT option for 3.95 a month.

 

I cant find a rough amount that they claim you owe, roughly what it is?

 

But If i were you I would make sure to myself that it wasnt me that signed the docs for the reason that I wouldnt want to say someone had committed fraud if I any doubts at all. If I didnt have any doubts then I would dispute the claim.

 

In your position im not sure what i would do as the sigs are different but the writing of the dates look similar.

[keefyboy]

Chris

Don't let them beat you mate, as I said before go back to the police and make an Official complaint about the signatures, I know you said your friend was in CID, I could give you a couple of reasons for him telling you to hold off making it official, but I may well put myself in a very difficult position that could lead to prosecution.

 

But my advice is go and make it official, secondly, tell Nationwide Recovery that the account is in dispute and they are to cease telephoning you, this is harresment. Buy a little of these pockets recorders and TAPE every call they make to you, and tell them straight you will proceed with a harresment order that you can get very easily from the courts. DO NOT HAVE ANY TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS with KAYS OR NATIONWIDE, if they phone ask the persons name and where they are calling from (ensure you have your recorder ready for that, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO INFORM THEM THAT YOU ARE TAPING THEM, there has been a change in the law giving us exemption. When they hang up record the Time and the date so you don't have to try and remember later on.

 

But Please, I will ask you personaly, DON'T GIVE UP MATE, we will all stick together ands beat them. You can now make an official complaint to the FOS, the more of us that complain will make them doing something against Crap ONe. Have you read through my thread, if not, it's link is a little way back on here, come and have a look see what I have done..

 

As I said before, all these things made me have a breakdown, it took me over 18 months to be able to get up against them. I will beat them, Ive had a couple of times lately when I've said to my misses I might give up on it (I was having a bad day) and she gave me a right mouthful, it did the trick, I have come back all guns blazing, Target Located in Nottingham... My next move is to SAR them and then await to see what the FOS says, then it's off to court... I don't care, I have nothing to lose, I have already lost it thanks to Northern Rock, house, money, everything, all I have left now is my lovely wife, a few bits and bobs, I even had to sell my mobility scooters to pay the removal men, so please don't give up, if you feel down I am quite happy for you to PM me, I will try and give you a shoulder mate to rest on.

 

Together WE WILL BEAT THEM !!!!!!