First time poster : disciplinary advice sought

[kernowayr]

Some of these 30 people are friend of mine on Facebook btw (I'm on there under a different alias so don't bother looking eh?) and haven't deleted me either so I don't think they are that bothered either about what has happened - it WAS over 3 weeks ago after all.

[MARTIN3030]

Your issues are Employment related,and therefore should stay in that forum.

Creating multiple posts,just makes things confusing for those trying to assist.Please stick to one thread. !

[jackieandwayne]

I can support how this made you feel, but not necessarily how you dealt with it!

 

I share a birthday with another person in our team. My immediate boss hates me, I don't know why, its been like this for the 2.5 years she's been with our firm. I'm a lot older and wiser than her (that could maybe be part of the problem!). I never get a well done, a thank you so on and so forth - but hey, I do my job, get on with my team mates and pick up my pay every month.

 

Last year this other person got a card and small gift from the team - I was left out! It made me feel very hurt and embarassed. It was deliberately engineered by this awful boss. But, and this is the important part, I ignored it, other than to mention to one of my team mates when I was asked, that I was hurt because of this. They team hadn;t even realised I had been left out and were furious.

 

But I didn't send e-mails about it, just got on with things.

 

Boot's on the other foot now though, because I have brought a grievance about this person, centred on bullying, and this incident is one of the examples listed, and I was told to include it by my Union rep as a clear example of being treated differently to everyone else!

 

Good luck, we all do things in haste - I suppose at least you managed to let them all know how this made you feel. I hope everything goes ok for you.

[godpikachu]

You basically just insulted 30 people, including your immediate supervisor, if the boot were on the other foot, would you have liked to have recieved an email containing thinly veiled insults and drivel?.

 

Best place would be the electronic bin then if that was the case, surely?

 

 

 

No of course you wouldnt, and youd go running straight to the manager too to report me for sending you stuff by email.

 

Maybe I'd think it through for a few days first before acting, like I did this time, and try some other way (ask their own line manager to have a quiet word with the sender directly maybe?)

 

O.K. I made it an issue to begin with but the recipient that drew it to the attention of my manager is just perpetuating it - under what motives God knows - they are unlikely to benefit in any way if I get the push at the hearing (not being employed by the same employer) so what difference should it make to any of them?

 

 

no, the best place for it was that it be brought to your managers attention, which one or more of the recipients did, and I applaud them for it.

 

Basically kernowayr, you are pathetic, you think the world revolves around you and woe betide if anyone DARES to suggest, in word or deed, that YOU arent the centre of attention.

 

you didnt get invited to a christmas party...boo hoo!, i didnt get invited to any parties this christmas either, and although i did get invited to a ocuple of new years parties, i wasnt able to attend due to travelling arrangments...but did I come posting drivel on the internet or sending emails to people whinging about it?, did i hell!, i made the best of it, and i bloody enjoyed myself regardless of other people!.

From reading some of your further posts, it seems to me that after you didnt recieve your invitation, you decided to gatecrash their party, and then you whinged because they didnt "cue" you over to their group when they noticed you.

 

By the looks of it,they didnt want you there in the first place, god, how many more times do i have to explain it to you?.

 

What was wrong with meeting up with some of your other, non work friends for christmas drink?, or calling round to see some of your family?, instead of trying to impose yourself and your colossal ego on someone else and trying to spoil their enjoyment??, then trying to make them feel guilty for spoiling YOUR PERSONAL expectations.

YOU dont run other peoples lives.

YOU dont get to tell people who they can associate with.

 

To me, all this brings into question how you behave while you are at work, as you have already said, you have a very good track record, but how do you associate with your collegues?, are you overpowering towards them?, are you always bragging about your accomplishments in front of them?, do you project the image that you think you are better than them?.

If you do, then theres no wonder they didnt want you there, and now youve sent your simpering email round them all, youve gone and shown them just how sad you really are.

 

As much as i have an intense dislike of bullying in any form, you have given them a reason to laugh at you behind your back, to make comments and jokes about you, all because your little bubble got burst nd youve been given a short, sharp introduction to real life via the school of hard knocks.

 

Dont come whinging about regulations and what not, you have made a colossal f**k up, and you are quite rightly going to be punished by your boss for doing it and whats more you have made yourself look like a complete fool, both at work and on here.

 

Thats the way it is, youve been told, and to be quite honest you need a damn good kick up the arse like this to knock you off your little pedestal.

 

Grow up, apologise to your co-workers, grovel to your boss, and stop being so self centred!

 

A quote i heard once was "You either live life, bruises, skinned knees and all, or you don't"

 

Something for you to think about there.

Edited January 4, 2009 by godpikachu
dodgy spelling plus additions.

[actionblusox]

Re: First time poster : disciplinary advice sought

Whilst I can see the point that actionblusox makes above, I feel that it is perhaps a little harsh.

-------------------------------------------------------

sidewinder i agree with your side of the employment procedure guidance part.

But i dont think that under these circumstances that i was being a little too harsh.

this is a real situation that has been blown up out of proportion and it takes real words like that to make someone realise that, 'hangon a minute maybe i have over reacted a lot'.

eat humble pie in the meeting then keep my head down

[godpikachu]

...it takes real words like that to make someone realise that, 'hangon a minute maybe i have over reacted a lot'.

eat humble pie in the meeting then keep my head down

 

yeah, its like i said, some people need a good kick up the backside to be forced into realising theyve donesomething wrong.

 

kernowayr is in the wrong in this matter, its plain to see but their own over inflated opinion of themselves wont allow them to see it.

[kernowayr]

kernowayr is in the wrong in this matter, its plain to see but their own over inflated opinion of themselves wont allow them to see it.

 

I think I've realised what I did was wrong by now thank youl.

 

Over inflated opinion of myself eh?

 

Sounds a bit like pot calling kettle black to me .......... GODpikachu are you sure you're not describing yourself with that slur too?

 

Last comments on the subject for now I have to make is that the Christmas thing was not just one incident it was several and was the epitome of a feeling I've been having since just before we all moved offices 3 months ago to where we are now - it appears to be collective bullying as suspected all along and then when I give a reaction (once baited) I have given them a ready made excuse to finally get rid of me but we'll see how I fare at the hearing won't we?

 

Thank you in the meaning for enlightening me as to errors of my ways but did you have to be so rude about it? - remember your comments can be read as well as mine on here and you may be well advised to rein your temper in also if you are trying to be helpful and not antagonistic towards first time posters (which I am) who incidentally heard your message loud and clear from the first post - your last post is not even totally accurate anymore as to what my original complaint was about. I wish you luck in your own personal endeavours and trials you have to go through in life all the same, you are going to need it just as much as me methinks. Bye for now.

[skonk]

I don't think godpikachu was being rude at all. I just read this thread and over and over it's the same thing. I didn;t get invited, O told them how i feel, I have said in future I am willing to let them invite me to other events. How nice of you. Godpikachu was just saying how it is, without being softly soft about it. I can honestly say my workmates are not people I would spend my free social time with, so maybe you shouldn't?

[godpikachu]

thanks skonk, appreciate your support.

 

I am always frank and forthright in my manner, because i for one am sick of the trend thats blighting this nation of "wrapping things up in cotton wool" and "sheilding" people from harsh truths.

 

kernowayr claims that they are a victim of "collective bullying"....tell me kernowayr (and i know you are still lurking and watching), are you being threatened physically?, mentally?, sexually?.

 

are you being struck physically by anyone?, is anyone taunting you based on your race?, religeon?, sexual orientation?, appearance?, are you being sexually molested?, or had demands made for sex from collegues?

 

Are you being ridiculed in front of your collegues?, are people passing jokes or altered images around featuring or about you?.

 

are any of your tormentors sabotaging your work?, stealing your things?, defacing your stuff?

 

are your employers holding you back for any reason?, are they not paying you wages?, are they arbitrarilly changing your work patterns or placements?

are your employers refusing to make adjustments for you due to disability, invalidity, infirmity or health problems?

 

 

i think youll find the answer to ALL of the above is a resounding NO, because you are only being bullied in your mind, by not being held as the centre of attention.

 

you feel you are superior to the rest of them, and you cant understand why they dont like and respect you, this is probably because in real life, you are probably like the character "david brent" from the BBC sitcom "the office", a small minded, petty, malicious little person, with delusions of grandeur.

 

 

P.S, my screen name does not imply that i believe i am in any way a deity, its romanised japanese and translates literally as "powerful energy mouse", again, you show your ignorance by slyly accusing someone of something without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

 

you have just been OWNED

[actionblusox]

i think i have to agree with the majority of the posts on this subject and it would be a reminder to anyone new or old that reads it, that once you have taken your personal feelings and thoughts out of a problem and looked at it through someone elses eyes, (especially through a forum such as this one)

has anyone actually done anything wrong?

because just because you are the longest serving employee it doesnt give you special rights, because if it did then others would be entitled to feel that they are being treated unequal which is obviously against equality.

and like i said earlier that in this case words have to be real and i agree with godpickachu.

you have probably been thinking along the lines of, how dare they move my place of work? how dare they share my offices? how dare they have more employees than us? how dare they not invite me to a party after all ive been here longest? how dare they not talk to me? when i write everything down in aletter how dare they not let me read it all? after all its only 20 pages long!

your health is more important dont take things to heart and over react just relax and sit back for a while.

[skonk]

I've just reread the original post and have to comment again. A few points. First off, you say that over the years you've had bonuses, pay raises, etc. and some of the workload taken from you. What's wrong with that? New people start and some of your work goes to them. A lot of people in jobs would love that situation.

 

Secondly,these 30 people who work on the same floor are not your work mates. They are 30 people who work in your vicinity, and I think it's pretty decent of them to invite you, your boss and the other five employees, out of decency. Of course they're not going to include you in the taxi arrangements. That's for the 30 workmates to sort out, and I bet all of these people are probably good friends and socialise out of work. When I was in work, we always invited the new people to little parties, etc. but we always expected them to make their own way there, as we didn't know them well enough, and why should we include them in the more personal aspects of the night out? I used to have quite a few workmates round at my house for drinks before we went out, but would always arrange to meet the new people in town.

 

You also say that the 5 other people you work with didn't include you when they arranged something. Why should they? You don't work with them on a day to day level. These are five people who work every day together and may see you once or twice a week. As far as they're concerened, they probably see you as some sort of managerial figure, and let's be honest, who actually wants to and enjoys inviting their boss on one of their nights out? You may reply and say you're not a manager or supervisor, etc. but these people see you as that, unfortunately. You don't say what position you hold in the company, but from what i can gather, you are above the other workers? If so, then that is the role of managers, etc. to not be included in some nights out by staff. Let's face it, when the boss or his cronies aren't there, all workmates bitch about how bad their boss is, even if they're decent. It's called venting your frustrations. No one wants the bosses spy out with them, and like I said, that is how they could see you.

 

If you think you're being bullied, and I hear this all the time from friends and other people. My advice is get a small, 99p notebook, write everything down that you consider to be bullying, and when you have enough pages, read through it with an open mind, then ask yourself again, is that really bullying? You may have a case, i'm not saying you haven't, but we don't know all the incidients you hint upon, so can't comment on it. If you do see it as bullying, then you have the notebook to help you in your claim for your alleged bullying.

 

One last thing, why do you think you're going to get a final written warning from your disciplinary? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's a verbal warning, then a written, then a final written. Are you genuinely ignorant on disciplinary procedure, or have you recieved previous warnings? I'm sorry, but i don't buy for one minute that you've worked there for nine years and have not heard of the disciplinary procedure.

 

My personal opinion is, you think you have a right to be invited to parties and such, and they should apologise to you if they don't invite you. Why? Are you that important to them that they owe you an apology for leaving you out of something? Let's face facts, you are only someone who works on the same floor as them. You are not their friend. You are a newcomer, and it's up to them if they want to include you, and you should just get your head down, and these people may take a liking to you and start inviting you to events, but they're certainly not going to if you're sending a whiny email about them. If you had mentioned my name in an email, damn right I would have reported it. First off, people are entitled to invite whoever they want to events they're arranging, then to see a childish email, naming them for being nasty for not inviting you is bloody outrageous! See it from their point of view.

 

No one here is intentionally trying to upset you, all they're doing is trying to make you open your eyes to the real world, that you're not as important as you think. Sending emails and moaning you're left out is only going to further alienate yourself from them.

 

As for the disciplinary, rightly so you deserve it. As someone else posted, you need to apologise, say you have blown it out of proportion, and bite the bullet and apologise to the people you've named. If they're decent folk, they'll eventually forgive you, but until you stop thinking of yourself as better than them, you're going to end up lonely at that company...

Edited January 5, 2009 by skonk

[Sidewinder]

Considering all of the posts above, I feel that the OP has, by now got the message, and accepts that she has gone about this in completely the wrong way. It might now be an appropriate time for kernowayr to stop trying to justify her actions, and for all concerned to stop name calling and kicking each other back and forth.

 

It is easy to be judgemental in situations such as this, but the Forum, although giving people the right to say "serve you right", also exists to give advice on how to deal with their circumstances. Both sides have now, I feel, been adequately expressed. I am sure that the OP is well aware that this situation has been brought on herself, and there is also some sound advice on appropriate remedies both now and to hopefully prevent a repetition in the future. Perhaps time to take a breath before this descends into unpleasantness?

[MARTIN3030]

The Op appears to have been given lots of advice,thoughts and opinion.The thread has now ran its course and fulfilled its objectives.Therefore time to close it-the OP is agreed on this.

Thank you all for your contributions.

[kernowayr]

The meeting has now taken place.

I am pleased to report that the reception I got was a very calm, sympathetic and generally professional approach on the part of the employer and that the final outcome was that I am still employed with a Final written warning on my record for a max. of 12 months only which, although not exactly good, it could have been so much worse resulting in at least the hassle of taking formal qualified advice on merits of appeal/formal action in response which I’ve now been saved having to do – perpertuating the incident even further.

I elected to go unaccompanied as was not comfortable with limited choice of eligible people available and was comfortable with neutral notetaker choice anyway, someone know to me and not the focus of my flame mail)

I responded to the claims being made against me (i.e. Gross Misconduct/Serious Misconduct/Unacceptable use of work e-mail) in a very mature, calm and controlled fashion and that this approach ultimately reflected back on me favourably thus adding credibility to my defence that the actions I had been accused of were bascially a cumulative response (albeit it an inappropriate one however justified/necessary it felt at the time or even now) or reaction to a number of sourced stress-factors which had been allowed to build up by me and largely ignored by others despite the warning signs

In my defence I cited mitigated circumstances and as my explanation for what I did, why I did it and why I dealt with the issue in the way that I did (sent an e-mail to 30 work/client employees as a highly inappropriate use of work facilities and generally O.T.T. in content - but highlighted to those present that I had not discredited myself yet further by using words or expressions, foul language, swearing or anything else careless enough that it could be seriously construed as defamation by any other particular individual - neither did I tell any lies about any of what had happened (in my mind) which led to the ofference - I am not completely stupid you know!).

My "mitigating circumstances" to explain why I'd done what I did, in that way and at that time were accepted as a truly genuine and valid explanation (without an admission of right or wrong or justified basis on either side) for sending the offending e-mail out to its recipients in the first place and not just a convenience excuse to get me out of a very deep hole a little bit and save my job from going completely down the tubes (as predicted by some of my responders to my original OP seeking views - see First Time Poster - Discplinary Hearing thread for full details as necessary please).

It was also accepted that my actions, whilst O.T.T., unprofessional, inappropriate or whatever else you wished to call it had been a clear and cumulative emotional reaction to a build-up of a number of different stress trigger factors sourced over a period of approximately 3-6 months and not just an egotistic overblown histrionics episode on my part resulting for things that had happened over the short intense period of events cited specifically in the mail in the 8 or days prior to the mail being sent. (the stressors had been sourced mainly from work colleague/collaborative relationships both in the office and other external sources of a personal problems nature.

I conceded that my actions had been an inappropriate use of work e-mail facilities which may have/did bring my employer's reputation into question and the individuals employed there also - although stated that my own opinion that any damage caused would, I felt, be limited and temporary, and suggested that the employer and myself were possibly the only 2 people still actively discussing what had happened and only because of the need for the hearing today to deal with it.

I said that, after the event and with the benefit of hindsight I recognised the pattern of events quite clearly and was confident that if a similar pattern of events arose in future I would be likely to recognise and not over react and thus be better able to deal with same in a more appropriate way, e.g. counselling, writing a letter but NOT sending it out, medication and other alternative therapies.

I let the Employer who came up with that angle that this was always a possibile explanation as why I had felt the action to the justified – I still do actually but not to such extremes perhaps. and was confident that if a crisis situation arose I would know what help was available and how to get hold of it if required though did not believe any formal help to be required at this time. They did not suggest I was ill and needed help but hinted I might like to consider help and way of coping in simlar circumstances – I felt I am not ill or any such existing illness now is likely to be only temporary (nothing an early night or two and a few decent meals wouldn’t sort) and that what I was going through now was only temporary and exacerbated simply because of having to get through this hearing. I had been coping very well before the summons came and my perspective had improved considerably since I’d sent the e-mail. I did not admit that I still felt entirely justified with some of the issues – the truth being I am not sure yet what I feel about everything and will try not to analyze this any further for fear or dwelling on the same unnecessarily, it’s over, time to move on and all that.

It was the Employer who raised the health side of things at the hearing, not myself. I was predicting the question would come up though and was prepared for it by admitting to doing some pior research on such issues as stress. mental health conditions etc it transpires that the notetaker admits to suffering from clinical depression herself (not that this was relevant for me to know that of course but I do now!)

 

 

My efforts and clear sense of remorse - they seemed to believe me, that I had barely thought of anything else since being advised I had been called to a disciplinary hearing about it, particularly when a possible (& in some eyes the most likely) outcome on the horizon.

I succesfully held back the tears pretty much right through the entire hearing – A goal I had set for myself in advance (not quite achieved fully). More than enough tears already been shed by me over this, possibly by others too that I am not aware of – my employer did come across as genuinely concerned for her own future should there be any fallout from the incident at a professional level for her – It seems she thinks this could have made the company unviable and thus everyone redundant and me never employable anywhere again presumably). She did not rant at me at any time though – which I thoroughly admire in the circs. As I was kind of expecting the opposite in those circs. And could just imagine the opposite happening anywhere else. Wake up calls all round I think, Directors and senior managers included for letting it happen in the first place methinks. It will be interesting to see if they learn and change their ways to cover themselves against accusations of bullying, letting things fester, conspiracy theories etc. etc.

I did not beg forgiveness at any time - if I was reckless or bold enough to take a stance and/or take my chances and blatantly contravene expected standards that might put my job on the line in the first place, surely I should be similarly brave enough to take the penalty without the indignity of grovelling to save my skin or involving anyone else?

So that’s what happened. Any comments anyone? Other than "you jammy sod" or "just how DID you do that (& unrepresented too" or "you should have been shown the door". A truly surreal life experience triumphing in the face of adveristy. Clearly my accentuate the positive approach worked or maybe that’s just a further weakness been exposed by my manager and a silent admission that just maybe she has F***ED up big style herself this time.

So, provided I keep my nose clean, I should be in the clear in 12 months again – phew (that was close!).

Edited January 6, 2009 by kernowayr

[Sidewinder]

It would seem that you have received a fair hearing and I think that under the circumstances you have been given a punishment which you can live with. Head down, chin up and concentrate on redeeming your reputation.

 

Glad that you have now got this behind you

[angel_1]

:cool:hiya

 

wow, if like you say you have learnt something from this and i hope you do look after yourself from now on, as due to my own personal health scare this past year, life and no job is worth any stress

 

i didnt get to read your initial post i dont recall, but i wish you the best for the next year, and above all, keep happy and really do take care of yourself,

 

laters angel x