Unfair ticket: stop and shop

[ITMC]

Hi Guys,

 

I've been given an unfair ticket while parking in a "30 min stop and shop bay". I parked my car at 10:02 (checked the time on my phone) and when I came back at 10:30 saw a traffic warden writing a ticket. I tried to tell him I had not overstaid but he just kept writing the ticket and put in my windscreen . What makes me angry is that reading the ticket it says

 

"the Civil Enforcement Officer XXX observed the vehicle identified above from 10:30 to 10:34...and believes a penalty charge is payable..."

 

This ticket is particularly annoying for me not only because comes in bad moment financially speaking but because in reality I was back at 10:30 and while discussing the guy just waited until it became 10:34 before printing the ticket ..this is how the council helps us in the credit crunch...

 

Can the traffic warden get away with something like that? What is the best way to appeal for such a ticket? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Al27]

The ticket and bays might be invalid anyway.

 

We need see photos and a scan of both sides of the PCN, minus personal details.

 

in reality I was back at 10:30 and while discussing the guy just waited until it became 10:34

 

Are you sure about this? 4 minutes is actually quite a period of time.

 

What times are on the P&D ticket? Your phone might have said 10.02, but what was the time on the machine?

[green_and_mean]

The 10.34 is irrelevant it's the time the PCN was finished if you were not late at 10.30 he would not have started writing the ticket. If its a free 30 min bay he would have needed to observe you for 30+ mins not 4?

[nero12]

The 10.34 is irrelevant it's the time the PCN was finished if you were not late at 10.30 he would not have started writing the ticket. If its a free 30 min bay he would have needed to observe you for 30+ mins not 4?

Post up thie ticket so we can check for a technical out.

 

remove personal details. Ignore council and ppc sympathisers that maybe lurking here

 

Pics of the bay would be good .

Edited December 20, 2008 by nero12
we know who that is LOL

[ITMC]

Thanks guys,

 

I am pretty sure about the timing as I checked when I saw the guy writing. I am tight with money in this period and so pretty careful in trying to avoid parking tickets. I've probably been naive trying to discuss with the guy but leaving with the car while he was trying to finish writing seemed to me a bit of a farcical situation. I will scan the ticket tomorrow at work and post it here.

[green_and_mean]

Post up thie ticket so we can check for a technical out.

 

remove personal details. Ignore council and ppc sympathisers that maybe lurking here

 

Pics of the bay would be good .

 

Hmmmm I fail to see how my post sympathises with anyone its a statement of fact? If you are going to post stupid comments about me at least have a valid reason other than just trying to look clever which as usual has failed. I fail to see how you can believe that your advice is anymore credible than others as on numerous occasions it has proved to be incorrect.

[green_and_mean]

Thanks guys,

 

I am pretty sure about the timing as I checked when I saw the guy writing. I am tight with money in this period and so pretty careful in trying to avoid parking tickets. I've probably been naive trying to discuss with the guy but leaving with the car while he was trying to finish writing seemed to me a bit of a farcical situation. I will scan the ticket tomorrow at work and post it here.

 

The law not gives the CEO the power to send the PCN through the post so regardless of you talking to him if it had been started you could have still received it. As I previously stated you would have had to have been parked too long at 10.30 or why else would the ticket have been started? What you need to find out is the initial time seen by the CEO which would need to be before 10.00 if its not you have grounds for cancellation as he had no reason to start issuing a PCN at 10.30 as you where still parked legally.

[ITMC]

According to my timing the guy was preparing the ticket before the time had expired and was waiting for the right time to print it. By standing around for few minutes discussing with him I gave him just this chance, the guy was just pretending to discuss to get those few minutes to pass. I have probably been naive but I consider this kind of behaviour obnoxious and unfair.

[green_and_mean]

According to my timing the guy was preparing the ticket before the time had expired and was waiting for the right time to print it. By standing around for few minutes discussing with him I gave him just this chance, the guy was just pretending to discuss to get those few minutes to pass. I have probably been naive but I consider this kind of behaviour obnoxious and unfair.

 

Have you actually read my advice????

[jed52]

g and m, I'm sorry mate, but who do you work for?

Quote; 'As I previously stated you would have had to have been parked too long at 10.30 or why else would the ticket have been started?' end quote.

Do you not think that the attendant could be a 'jobsworth', or what is more commonly known as a 'TW*T'?...... they do exist, you know.

I've read quite a few of your posts on here and i've noticed that you have been, on quite a number of occasions, argumentative, confrontational and provocative. I know you try to put another point of view across, but, as nero12 suggested, you could be 'lurking'.

Why dont you try to offer advice, instead of criticising? I am sure that any advice you give would be greatly appreciated by most of the people on here.

I'm sorry ITMC, if I appear to have hi-jacked your thread. jed

[ITMC]

No worries Jed52, you actually expressed my feelings better than I have done myself...if I didn't feel I have been treated unfairly I would not spending all this time and effort to challenge this penalty.

 

It's probably a silly question but I scanned the PCN in JPEG format, how do I post the picture now ?

[flyingdoc]

what you need to do is join a picture hosting site - (tinypic is good)TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

 

upload the image to that site and then post the link here so that we can see it.

[green_and_mean]

g and m, I'm sorry mate, but who do you work for?

Quote; 'As I previously stated you would have had to have been parked too long at 10.30 or why else would the ticket have been started?' end quote.

Do you not think that the attendant could be a 'jobsworth', or what is more commonly known as a 'TW*T'?...... they do exist, you know.

I've read quite a few of your posts on here and i've noticed that you have been, on quite a number of occasions, argumentative, confrontational and provocative. I know you try to put another point of view across, but, as nero12 suggested, you could be 'lurking'.

Why dont you try to offer advice, instead of criticising? I am sure that any advice you give would be greatly appreciated by most of the people on here.

I'm sorry ITMC, if I appear to have hi-jacked your thread. jed

 

.....AND YOUR ADVICE IS???

 

I am not putting across any point of view simply stating facts!!

 

a) If the vehicle was not parked overtime at 10.30 the OP should question why a PCN was being issued.

b) The CEO did not have to stall for time as the PCN had already been started and could be sent through the post

c) An observation time of 4 minutes is pointless in a 30 min bay

 

If you in your weird little world think that any of these points are taking the Councils side or being argumentative then there is something wrong with you? So far neither you or Nero have contributed anything to this thread other than to have a personal dig at me. So maybe if you wound your neck in and actually contributed something THEN maybe you would be in a position to critise my advice and technical knowledge.

[flyingdoc]

can we keep on thread please?

 

G&M shoots from the lip - but what he says is exactly correct.

I have read many of his posts in other threads and while his style is direct his advice is usually sound, although not always what the OP wants to hear.

 

We need to see the ticket and then we can see the grounds for which it was issed and the times the CEO is claiming to have observed the car.

Once we have this we can advise further.

[ITMC]

Green and mean:

-The vehicle was not parked overtime according to my timing (I parked at 10:02 and the guy was there standing and waiting at 10:30)

-The guy declared to have seen the car there from 10:30 to 10:34 in the ticket (I erased date/timing from the image just to be extra careful, you never know nowadays with data)

Now if you have a good suggestion/advice on how to redress what I think is an unfair ticket issued by a miserable traffic warden that would be greatly appreciated.

Trying to post the front of the PCN now...

[flyingdoc]

LOL you have removed the times that the CEO has entered. can you please tell us what they were??

[ITMC]

Wow, it worked!

 

here is the back:

 

[flyingdoc]

sorry - he says he saw the car there from 10.30 to 10.34 - those were the 2 times he put on the ticket???

 

if so then he is certifying that you were in that parking bay for 4 minutes - can you please post the reverse please.

[ITMC]

The times were from 10:30 to 10:34

[flyingdoc]

I would say this ticket is ridiculous. YOu were in a 30 minute bay and the CEO has clearly stated on the ticket that he observed you there for 4 minutes.

Unless you had to get a ticket from a machine to say when you parked (which you do not state so I assume that you didnt) this ticket appears to be self defeating.

 

would be interested in what others have to say on this.

[ITMC]

Hmm.. flyingdoc I thought those were the times at the end of the ticket, just to show that he waited for 4 minutes after expiry before writing the ticket. In the ticket it is written "observed the vehicle identified above from 10:30 to 10:34...." maybe the guy got it wrong when he saw me and rushed to write the ticket ?

[flyingdoc]

he has certified that he observed the vehicle for 4 minutes in a 30 minute parking bay.

 

maybe you didnt stay long enough??? perhaps the 30 minutes was a minimum

 

I would appeal this to them on the grounds that the ticket clearly states that you were there for only 4 minutes.

[green_and_mean]

Most machines used by CEOs if the ticket is issued instantly will show the length of time it took to write as the first seen and issued times. In that situation the CEO would have logged the initial observation in his note book, this is what you need to clarify. That is why I said that it would have had to have been parked over 30 mins (according to CEO) when he started to issue the PCN. It would not seem logical that he would have started to issue 4 minutes before you had overstayed since at that point you were not parked illegally and he had no grounds for issuing a PCN. What you need to do is ask for a copy of his notes and check that his movements and ticket issue match up with the time he will have said he first saw you. If he says he recorded you at 9.45 but issued a PCN two streets away at 9.46 it will show who is telling porkies.

[ITMC]

Hmm...I asked the guy for evidence/picture of my overstay and he just pointed out to his camera. When I asked to see the picture he refused. He then pointed out to his notebook but he closed it almost immediately without allowing me to see. My girfriend thinks she saw 10:02 as a time he logged us in but she is not sure. The guy looked a bit strange . As I said according to my timing I did not overstay - I think the guy was waiting there for the expiry to bag the ticket.

 

Anyway, what do you guys think is the best course of action now? Is this time issue enought to invalidate the ticket or do I need to add also a request to see his notes in my letter and appeal stating that according to my timing I did not overstay?

[ITMC]

Update on the situation: I appealed on the ground that I did not overstay and that the parking ticket stated that the warden observed the vehicle for only 4 minutes....received today the answer from the council. The letter states:

 

"The civil enforcement officer first observed your vehicle at 10:02 and noted the position of the valves on your wheels . The vehicle was then observed at 10:34 with the valves in the same position, confirming that the vehicle had not moved within that time. Therefore I am not willing to cancel this PCN."

 

The reply letter also says: "please do not make a further challenge before a receipt of the Notice To Owner (NTO) as this will not be considered."

 

 

Now the situation is the following:

• according to my timing I did not overstay
  
• the timing in the council reply (10:02-10:34) is in contrast with what the warden wrote in the PCN (only 4 minutes, from 10:30 to 10:34)
  
• The warden/council did not produce any evidence of pictures of my car in the bay or of "valves in the same position"
  

I want to go ahead with my challenge, so what do I need to do now? :? I guess the fact that I need to wait for the NTO means that if I lose the challenge now I will have to pay for the full charge?

 

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated!