why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[davefirewalker]

One thing that always puzzles me about "electronic signatures" is the way that they can be so easily...............whats the word I'm looking for........"made up"

 

Any fool at a computer can just print up a doc and put a tick on it.......

 

I did some research a while back on copies of documents and the legalities involved in storing information electronically (digitally).

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1692605.html

 

There must be systems in place to guarantee fidelity. Surely giving out a doc with a tick is just not good enough....it must be qualified by some sort of hash or at least an electronic "paper trail" time datestamp ip number etc.....and this should be supplied with the request

 

they cant or shouldn't be able to get away with printing a doc and adding a tick to it.

 

on the other side of the story, I can hear the judge say .....

 

"DID you fill in a form online?" .......did you get credit?"........"did you spend it ?"...........

 

case closed.......enforceable!!

 

As wrong as that scenario might be.....

 

They NEED to look again at online applications......

 

 

rgds

 

 

Dave

[davey77]

CPR sent twice and the reply is that they do don't acknowledge my request for information under the CPRs but under the Data Protection Act and Subject Access Request?!

 

Anyone know the legal points involved in how to respond to such a blatant attempt to avoid the CRP route by them?

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/CabotCPR15Jan.jpg

[joneseyblod]

Hi davey77

 

Saw the reply from Cabot! They really are trying to run circles around people arent they.

[pt2537]

right then, they are saying they are unaware of any proceedings??? well under CPR 31.16 there wouldnt be any proceedings as that provision allows where you beleive you have a potential claim but do not have sufficeint info , to ask for the documents you need to proceed or to confirm that you have no claim

 

I think that he has not even looked at CPR 31.16 personally

[davey77]

Cabot are a dodgy bunch alright Joneseyblod!

 

Thanks for that PT.

[andrew1]

right then, they are saying they are unaware of any proceedings??? well under CPR 31.16 there wouldnt be any proceedings as that provision allows where you beleive you have a potential claim but do not have sufficeint info , to ask for the documents you need to proceed or to confirm that you have no claim

 

I think that he has not even looked at CPR 31.16 personally

 

Thank you Pt, you just made my day I had the same situation with another company I'm facing where they used this CPR 31.16 in exactly the same way. Boy, what a forum this is...you never realise what one simple answer does for one, changes the world for another. Cheers matey!

 

 

Cabot are a dodgy bunch alright Joneseyblod! davey you're learning:D

[joneseyblod]

Go get em davey!

[tifo]

i sent a CPR 31.16 request to Amex after they sent me an unsigned (by them) application form missing all prescribed terms, and they've replied that they have passed my letter to the DCA to whom the account was sold, so that it can be responded to.

 

as my action is potentially against Amex and not the DCA, why are they doing this?

 

or, when an account has been sold to a DCA, do we make the request and claim against them?

 

in that case, why do we claim charges back from the bank?

 

confused now ...

Edited January 15, 2009 by tifo

[hope6]

Hi,need some advice please have asked all my creditors for my CCA's (on the 5 Dec 2008) which so far none have been sent, all 15 of these were taken out around 2000 and before.

I understand that it can take months but what in 6mths none have been sent what is my next step.

(One of these is a CCJ so l have continued sending payment for this debt.) Could you please when replying write it in easy format as l'm dyslexic and struggle..... sorry !!!! Thank you Hope6

[foolishgirl]

Hi Hope - welcome to CAG

 

1. You MUST continue to pay on the CCJ even if you think it was obtained without a CCA as a warrant of execution can be issued for baliff action if you don't. There are steps you could take re. getting a set aside of the judgment but you need to start a seperate thread on this subject/creditor if you want to pursue this route.

 

2. I am assuming that the CCAs you have requested are all in respect of credit cards or loans (bank overdrafts are slightly different)

 

3. After 12+2 days & no CCAs received from the other creditors, you can issue a letter to them all placing the accounts in dispute & witholding further payments until they produce the CCA. Do not sign the letter, print or use digital signature, send them Rec. Del.

 

Here is an example letter you can amend to use:

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

Request for true copy of Credit Agreement under Sections 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I wrote to you recently requesting a true, signed copy of any credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of the statutory fee of £1.00. This payment was included with my original request.

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested document. This deadline has now passed & I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

I am sure you are aware that an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, is completely unenforceable & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect.

 

Furthermore, you should remember that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

 

• You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.
  
• You may not pass this account to any third party.
  
• You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You may not issue a default notice related to this account.
  

 

4. If you require help wih any particular issue or creditor, you are advised to start a seperate thread for each in the appropriate forum eg. Barclaycard forum for BC debts etc. That way it is easy for others to follow & you get more specialised help.

Edited January 15, 2009 by foolishgirl
typos

[foolishgirl]

If you still have not received a CCA after 6 months you have a choice:

 

1. You can just ignore the issue, including correspondence, tel. calls etc., until something comes up & wait for the default & debt to expire - 6 years from the date of the last payment made.

 

2. You could apply to a court to have the debt declared unenforceable but you risk the OC finding the CCA & the fact that the CCA may then be enforceable.

 

As your debts are from 2000, it is probable that the OCs do not have the CCA but it is up to you how you deal with it.

[hope6]

Thank you Foolishgirl for your help will send copy of the letter you provided.... Hope6

[hope6]

Foolishgirl, do you think it is worth getting in touch with the companies that can try to wipe out your debts as l worry l'm getting out of my dept with this....... Hope6

[foolishgirl]

Foolishgirl, do you think it is worth getting in touch with the companies that can try to wipe out your debts as l worry l'm getting out of my dept with this....... Hope6

 

IMO, definitely not! These companies charge you a lot of money for doing exactly the same as you can do for yourself with just a little time & effort spent on research & they guarantee you nothing.

 

When you first look at this site, there is so much on it (much of which you personally will never need) that it is easy to get confused. My advice is to look at lots of posts that you think are relevant to you. Bookmark them for reading at leisure so you don't get too tired with your dyslexia.

 

Don't panic if you see references to abusive DCAs or difficult DJs in court; most cases are not like that & if you do get problems, bring them here & someone will help you deal with them effectively. You have only to look in the 'successes' to see exactly how effective this organisation is.

 

Think about what exactly you want to achieve with each creditor, then if necessary post up yourself for help in the appropriate forum. CAGers are very helpful & supportive & you will not be made to feel stupid by asking questions.

[hope6]

Have taken your advice and will carry this through. I suppose I have nothing to lose as I have had these debts for years.....

 

Your advice has been really encouraging !!!

 

Thank you Hope6

[wintermare]

hi there,

new to ppi claims but i just thought you should all know.

last week i contacted welcome to get a further loan,mine is £10000 but it is always paid and i was told i had up to £17000 avalible(last year)

 

they said they would call back and i could fill out a new application---no phone call

i called again today and i was told they will not be issuing any further loans for the forseeable future???

the guy i spoke to told me his job was safe but there is mass redundancies across the board.All future loans would come from head office.

 

I dont really think its the credit crunch personally i think their hands have been cuffed and no more loans.

 

could someone find out what kind of investigation they are under please

the loan they gave me was for £10000 and i only earn £13000 single 2 kids and a big morgage so i wont get a loan anywhere else to pay tthe total if they call it in.

i posted this previously in Re: Welcome Finance Investigation

hope its of some use

[Kraken1]

NO investigation I think, just capital problems. And if there were an investigation by the FSA or someone we'd not know. They keep that sort of thing close to their chests.

 

BBC NEWS | Business | Loan firm set to cut 1,000 jobs

[ouch123]

Also received unsigned T&C's from BarclayCard stating they have fullfilled their obligation under CCA 1974. I think they have had some hot-shot lawyers look into this.

 

Not meaning to be silly here , but has anyone written in and simply asked for a copy of the original signed agreement without any legal motivation.

 

Eg. Dear Sirs,

 

I would like to assess my financial situation and my Credit Agreement with you plays an important part in the assessment.

 

Please kindly supply me with a copy of my original signed Agreement with you.

 

All the best,

 

Ouch123.

 

 

Naive???

[davefirewalker]

Also received unsigned T&C's from BarclayCard stating they have fullfilled their obligation under CCA 1974. I think they have had some hot-shot lawyers look into this.

 

Not meaning to be silly here , but has anyone written in and simply asked for a copy of the original signed agreement without any legal motivation.

 

Eg. Dear Sirs,

 

I would like to assess my financial situation and my Credit Agreement with you plays an important part in the assessment.

 

Please kindly supply me with a copy of my original signed Agreement with you.

 

All the best,

 

Ouch123.

 

 

Naive???

 

been there ...done that about two years ago.......I was fortunate as the banks hadnt quite got their act together and were all doing different things. I got my signed agreements no problems at all...........

 

However I think that they must have all been to a meeting or something because they all sem to toe the same line

 

Dave

[Josie8]

been there ...done that about two years ago.......I was fortunate as the banks hadnt quite got their act together and were all doing different things. I got my signed agreements no problems at all...........

 

However I think that they must have all been to a meeting or something because they all sem to toe the same line

 

Dave

 

 

You mean they could be acting as a Cartel?..................perish the thought!!! Maybe OFT should look into it......................lol!:D

[mikek]

The bare minimum they need in order to enforce the agreement in court is a document (original or copy) showing clearly your signature and all prescribed terms (correctly stated and without mistakes). If not, they can do nothing legally. End of!

 

The hide and seek game with the copy agreements needs to stop. Stand up for yourselves and seek the document bearing your signature. You can!

[cadencealex]

The bare minimum they need in order to enforce the agreement in court is a document (original or copy) showing clearly your signature and all prescribed terms (correctly stated and without mistakes). If not, they can do nothing legally. End of!

 

The hide and seek game with the copy agreements needs to stop. Stand up for yourselves and seek the document bearing your signature. You can!

 

 

But they are making them themselves... using copy and pasting etc etc

[B3rty]

PT Quote:

the key thing is , if they are not in compliance with their obligations under s78 as set out within para 16 of Rankine vs Amex, the correct procedure is to seek an injunction stopping the creditor from bringing proceedings or if proceeedings are already started then you can seek a stay until they are in compliance

 

Paul are you suggesting its best to follow this rather then go to court and defend using 127(3)?

[Muffintop]

Interesting but didnt the rankines fall flat?

[pt2537]

the Rankines case closed a few doors that we already knew werent worth going through, but it opened many more doors for us to use

 

The Para 16 of the judgment clearly sets out that where there is non compliance with 77,78 or 79 CCA then the coirrect course of action is to seek an injunction restraining the lender from enforcing the agreement or taking such steps as to enforce it until it complies

 

if a claim is brought against you then you should without question defend it but if proceedings are already in progress then you can use the CPR to your advantage as well