'C.R.A.'s Archiving Our Data Over 6 Years Old'

[renegotiation]

I just got back from a small holiday. Hi everyone. A quick update on my enquiries on whether the CRA's archive data over 6 years old on settled and defaulted accounts. Equifax never replied to my follow up letter with big red letters in certain places. I had to prevent any mock ignorance from their next response. Their silence is a full admission for me. Callcredit never replied to my first letter at all. They will get my kiddy letter sent off today. The ICO told me they wanted to see my letter from Experian and what I got back from Equifax and Callcredit. I will give it 2 weeks and then send off everything I have. In the meanwhile I am going to start harassing Equifax on the telephone. I am going to insist on speaking to a manager and ask why I haven't been given an answer to my query. Unfortunately, I don't have a number for Callcredit. I do have an email address for a manager though and he will be getting the same treatment. I am then going to write to my MP asking him why we need 3 of these companies. In my eyes we certainly don't. It feels like I am fighting on a zillion fronts at the moment, but will persevere. Plod, plod. :)

[renegotiation]

Did anyone follow up on the issue of C.R.A.'s archiving our data after it is removed from credit reports? I eventually got a response from Callcredit, after much pestering, that they did indeed archive our data. They refused to say for how long though. Equifax flatly denied that they archive data. Again, they had to be pestered quite a bit. What makes me dubious is that when I pushed for a letter from them signed by a manager 'relevant' to the said issue they started waffling! I suspect that they do indeed retain this information. As I made clear in a previous post, Experian have already admitted that they do indeed archive our data. As with Callcredit, they wouldn't state for how long. Probably indefinitely in my opinion. I believe that the issue of archiving needs to be regulated. There needs to be a set period where our data is still on their systems after it has been removed from our credit reports. They shouldn't be allowed to keep our data indefinitely. For me, this period should be 2 years at the absolute maximum. I am now ready to present my case to the I.C.O.. I just wanted to be sure that no one else had taken the bull by the horns and pressed on with this issue.

[renegotiation]

I will wait until Monday and if I hear nothing will compose my complaint and send it off to the I.C.O.. I will post it up on this thread.

 

Just for the record, this is the response from Callcredit:

 

Dear Mr,

Thank you for your e-mail; I am sorry that you did not find my response adequate. I confirm once six years have elapsed on settled and defaulted accounts, the credit account records are removed from all credit referencing databases. However, I further confirm these records are not immediately erased from archives, research datasets, or disaster recovery facilities. I trust this clarifies matters.

Yours sincerely,

 

It would have been nice to get this response without sending multiple letters and emails though. All my correspondence was completely clear from the off. They seemed to continually think I was concerned about the future of my own ruined credit report and not just a concerned citizen. All they kept on saying was 'it won't be visible on your report', 'it won't be visible on your report'. Well I knew that and the best way to keep it like that is to permanently erase the data after a set period of time.

Edited November 19, 2008 by renegotiation

[MARTIN3030]

Interesting comments.

I pressed them on the same issues,following a fall off of a 6 year entry.The response was the same.But they did give me a reply with a FOC endorsement to have a new copy of my file.Ha Ha.

 

This is an interesting one.

If we look at Banks arguements now as they frantically change their stance,specifically saying they are not obliged to provide info pre 6 years.

But more importantly they say "WE HAVE NO OBLIGATIONS TO STORE IT"

So surely that tells its own story.

 

They were not too concerned before,based on the assumption that they were protected under the limitation act from pre 6 claims.

 

However after they were challenged under section 32 © of this act-which turns the tables on them,it was a different ball game.

 

The other issue is the microfiche arguement.

Both Abbey and Barclaycard were visited by the Information Commissioners Office and had their systems analysed,after claiming their archived Microfiche data fell outside the Data Protection Act.

The Information Commissioners Office overuled on it saying that it did.

 

Maybe worth trying to find out how Mycall store their archived data-but I guess they wont be quick to tell.

 

If it can be established that they can be challenged on this,then I would go down the Court Route for an order.

[Newborn]

I wonder if the lenders keep the data just in case the debt can in the future be proved not to be statute barred? Such as B-Card selling debt to Cabot after 3 years then debtor makes payment 1 year on so they could argue the need to retain for another 6 years.

However I would argue that the OC should be ordered to destroy everything after 6 years from the default or their own last interaction with the debtor. If they sell the debt on it should be the DCAs responsibility to store the said records (not licence the OC to hold it!).

This of course does not apply to CRAs as they have clear time limits for publishing data. They should be ordered to destroy (non-recoverably)everything after 6 years from the default or court action (12 years for mortgages).

There is also, as already pointed out by martin3030, the subject of the storage medium. A while ago many firms (as well as hospitals etc) went down the route of using a cheaper WORM (write once read many times) medium where data is stored forever and udeletable unless the disc is physically destroyed. This can lead to firms breaking data protection law by default.

On the other hand however, if the lenders and CRAs destoy everything, then the DCA may feel free to re-register the default as a new one knowing the debtor will have no proof of the old one and we know who the CRAs believe. So the CRAs would argue they need to keep data for consumer protection to prove the debt was paid.

What is needed is a well thought out bill together with one governemnt regulated CRA and no court action unless the debt is properly registered with that CRA. Then proper record keeping that protects both parties.

 

Newborn

[sillygirl1]

If such a bill was to come to power IMHO it should contain the PRECISE wording as follows.

 

1. ONLY the original creditor can place a default on the account, the default CANNOT be backdated placed on an account and cannot exist after 6 years on an account, no matter what the status of that account after 6 years from the default.

 

2. Should any DCA place any action on an account this should be deemed unlawful under the Unfair Contracts regulation as the original contract is between the debtor and the claimant, not with any agent acting on behalf of the claimant.

 

3. Should an outsourced DCA be used that DCA has no legal powers to place ANY information on a debtors account because the original contract is with the original creditor and the debtor.

 

Bet you the lawmakers wouldn't go that far - basically I am saying in a nutshell ONLY THE ORIGINAL CREDITOR CAN PLACE ANY ACTION ON A CREDIT REFERENCE FILE.

[MARTIN3030]

I will wait until Monday and if I hear nothing will compose my complaint and send it off to the I.C.O.. I will post it up on this thread.

 

Just for the record, this is the response from Callcredit:

 

Dear Mr,

Thank you for your e-mail; I am sorry that you did not find my response adequate. I confirm once six years have elapsed on settled and defaulted accounts, the credit account records are removed from all credit referencing databases. However, I further confirm these records are not immediately erased from archives, research datasets, or disaster recovery facilities. I trust this clarifies matters.

Yours sincerely,

 

It would have been nice to get this response without sending multiple letters and emails though. All my correspondence was completely clear from the off. They seemed to continually think I was concerned about the future of my own ruined credit report and not just a concerned citizen. All they kept on saying was 'it won't be visible on your report', 'it won't be visible on your report'. Well I knew that and the best way to keep it like that is to permanently erase the data after a set period of time.

 

 

I am inquisitive also as to why they mention research data sets,and disaster recovery facilities ?

 

Are they hiding behind something here that can justify their arguements ?

 

I did a search and found this;

 

Research - Research Datasets

[SilverLining]

 

Callcredit - They don't seem to be contactable by phone apparently!

 

Here you go - as if by magic!

 

Callcredit Limited

One Park Lane

Leeds

West Yorkshire

LS3 1EP

t. 0113 244 1555

f. 0113 234 0050

w. Credit report information for consumers - Callcredit | Callcredit - Credit Reports & Credit Advice

 

Details of number found here:

Callcredit - Consumer Credit Referencing - Contact Us

 

Maybe a little late but better late than never lol ;-)

[inkslinger]

I would suggest that disaster recovery is their lovely way of saying we auto back up information at certain calendar points to hard drives and there is no way in hell we are apt to go back through them and remove it, have you any idea how much that would cost? we don't care if it's illegal, we are here to make money.

 

Funny how most banks wiped most of their old stuff out 5 or 6 years ago to avoid SAR challenges and possible recovery action. Iv got a default 5 years old, Im fighting it now, because a) I don't think its anything to do with me, and b) Ill be highly surprised if they can supply a signed agreement and a default notice, Im fighting it all the way until the 6 year mark just to see if paperwork is still stored.

 

Im betting my left one not.

[Sparkie1723]

I think it is time that section 140 of the New Consumer Credit Act ought to be looked at with the view of using it against the CRA's They do charge money and you sign an agreement to subscribe to their on lne service .they charge for supplying a credit report so a financial contract is in existence..if this can be used this will cause the CRA's BIG BIG problems any legally trained minds view on this would be appreciated.

This section has no time limit

 

sparkie

[lookinforinfo]

Renegotiation, Experian appear to be saying that if you SAR them then they will send you everything they have on you. You could insist that as they archive your data that not only do you want that, but you also want an affidavit to the effect that they have sent everything they have on you.

I understand that there is a heavy fine should they not send you everything.

[2Grumpy]

I am inquisitive also as to why they mention research data sets,and disaster recovery facilities ?

 

Are they hiding behind something here that can justify their arguements ?

 

I did a search and found this;

 

Research - Research Datasets

 

All of this is based on our giving credit suppliers / other companies the right to share data for whatever reason

 

I don't remember ever seeing a statemnt that my data will be shared for the purpose of any research.

 

Does this mean that people will be getting access to personal data who have no legitimate reason to see it?

[Dibsthefrenchie]

What a brilliant thread!

I applied for a mortgage through a financial broker seven years ago, the mortgage was with a sub-prime lender due to my credit history and the advisor had copies of my archived accounts, so clearly the CRA's make the information available on request.

Is there a loophole that they have wriggled through that allows them to do this, or is the law ambiguous in that as long as the data displayed on your credit report is not over six years old, then they can still sell the archived information on, or perhaps it's a simple case of i'm regarded as a debtor and deserve to be penalised forever?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Yet another reason for pressing for better and clearer regulation to stop the misuse of personal data as

the ICO seem to more taking the side of DCA's and CRA's IMHO.

[The Debt Star]

or perhaps it's a simple case of i'm regarded as a debtor and deserve to be penalised forever?

 

that, imo, is EXACTLY what its about. they would bring back debtors prisons and breaking rocks for the rest of our lives if they could get away with it.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

AND WHY NOT DS:madgrin:

What brought that on

[The Debt Star]

The old Marshalsea Prison site in London is still vacant. A prime brown field site for a rebuild; as The Experian Correctional Centre? Or perhaps Barclaysea Prison?

 

Nowadays it might work like this:

 

Anyone with a credit scrore of less than 300 is locked up with their entire family until their debts are repaid + 6 years. They can work for their keep and there will be no tax payer involvement. The Experian Correctional Centre will be self-financing so in these budget constrained times there will be no drain on public finances.

 

Anyone with a mid-range credit score gets locked up for 6 years with access to family plus 6 years after they are debt free. make it a round 12 for good measure, just in case they are tempted to apply for credit again.

 

Good and Excellent Experian credit scorers are exempt of course, until they get ripped off by their bank and default on their mortgages in a global credit crisis caused by those banks. Then they go to Barclaysea and the key is thrown away.

 

Should this be on the Tory's manifesto? Sounds like policy already.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Sounds the Anthony Lynton Blur enrichment plan all

are equal but I am bu**ered if I'm going to be like the PLEBS:madgrin:

[The Debt Star]

Bliar's administration was Tory mate, in all but name only.

 

Getting back to topic, the 6 year period that data is held has no grounding as far as I can discover in statute. The DPA does not prescribe the period for which information is retained by the credit reference agencies. The FSA Handbook refers to 3, 6 years or indefinitely depending on the product type. The 6 years comes from the statutory limitation period for civil claims. So account information is held by the credit reference agencies for a period of six years after the account was last active. It also appears to be the case that in addition to current credit commitments the preceding six years of an individual’s credit history is taken into account by creditors.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The six year period I think comes

from the old Inland Revenue/Treasury

regs on keeping documents for tax

liability and audit.

[car2403]

The six year period I think comes

from the old Inland Revenue/Treasury

regs on keeping documents for tax

liability and audit.

 

Money laundering regulations

[The Debt Star]

Money laundering regulations

 

Which part of the MLR and can you post a link to them?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The six year period for limitation,

data storage and other matters all

stems back many years from Inland

Revenue regulations that required

the retention pf documents for tax purposes,

which was then adopted into the MLR,

the banking world adopted it for the retention

of records and so it goes on, but the DPA ,

says that records should be kept no longer

than necessary, very open ended IMHO.

 

Brig.

[The Debt Star]

so in fact much, much worse then. a CRA charter even. what specific legislation is there in scotland that restricts it to 'just' 5 years I wonder.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Scotland has a much different system of

criminal and civil law their Limitations

Laws say 5 years the laws of England

and Wales have no impact.