Nuke Em CCA'ing Amex

[nuke em]

I recently CCA requested Amex ( re a credit card not charge card), what i received back was a short letter from them stating the following:

 

Dear Nuke Em

 

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your original application form as requested. Validation of the debt is provided by regular statements

 

i hope i have been of assistance etc

 

yours

 

amex

 

 

they also sent me 2 pages of something that is clearly marked "The American Express credit card application form"

 

i dont have a scanner at the moment , getting one later on today , so i can post up what they have sent, but in the meantime

 

what exactly should i be looking for here after all they have confirmed in their letter they have sent me a sent a "copy of an application form..."

[42man]

This might help....

 

CCA RULES FOR PRESCRIBED TERMS

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

IS MY AGREEMENT ENFORCEABLE( Via section 127(3) CCA1974)

PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1)(0) AND 127(3) OF THE

CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974 Taken from sced.6(1983/1553) regulations

(If you just want to find out, skip the bits in between the stars it’s just some extra information)

 

**What do we mean by unenforceable?

In the Consumer Credit Act section 127 there is a provision for making an agreement unenforceable if it does not contain certain pieces of information.

Subsections 1,2,3,4 state which pieces of information these are, and everything mentioned there must be included within the body of the agreement, if one is missing the agreement is unenforceable.

 

How does unenforceable differ from enforceable with a court order only?

When an agreement is unenforceable it means that the court or the judge cannot make a ruling on it. The court cannot make it enforceable.

When an agreement is enforceable only by ruling of the court it means that the agreement can be stopped by the debtor but the court has the power to re-instate it and allow the credit to continue to enforce.**

 

The Prescribed Terms are these

 

A Amount of credit

A term stating the amount of credit

 

B Repayments

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following-

(a) Number of repayments;

(b) Amount of repayments;

© Frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) Dates of repayments;

(e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

C Rate of interest

A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

D Credit limit

This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

--------------------------

 

Which of these applies to you depends on the type of agreement you have?

 

For a Running Account (credit card) agreement

 

BC and D Apply

 

For a Restricted Use Debtor Creditor Supplier

• Where the dealer is the supplier and the creditor is the one providing the finance.
  
• The money can only be used for the purpose it is given.
  
• There is no interest on the purchase (the cash price is the same as the total price)
  
• And there is no advance payment
  

A is applicable

 

For a fixed Sum Credit Agreement

A conventional credit agreement with none of the above restrictions

 

A and B apply

 

For a Hire Agreement

 

B is Applicable

 

This paper only covers section 127(3) of the Act agreements can also be unenforceable by contravention of sections 1 and4 this will be the subject of the next paper.

Please note that these Prescribed terms where not changed in any way by the 2004/1482 Ammendments although the form in which they appear on the agreement was. Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreements executed before that date.

[nuke em]

Ok thanks for that, i still dont have the scanner ( not untill later on)

 

but just looking at one of the pages it says the following:

 

 

Key Financial Information

 

2. Credit limit

we will decide, at our discression, Your credit limit from time to time and inform you what it is, we may vary these limits from time to time.

 

3 Payments

Payments must be made monthly. The minimum amount you need to pay us each month will be 3% of the total amount owing or £5, whichever is more. You can also pay anything up to the full amount you owe, if you wish. payments must be received by us within 25 days of the date of the statement we will send to you. the final date upon which we must receive paynment will also be shown on the statement.

 

4. Annual Percentage rate ( purchase APR rate variable)

4.1 14.8% APR

 

 

do these satify B, C & D ?

 

any help with Amex

Edited October 7, 2008 by nuke em
spelling

[nuke em]

i now have a scanner --- yipeee

 

anway amex sent me 2 pages, 1 clearly labled "application form"

 

In the meantime i found the original that was sent in 2005. ( unsigned by me) Clearly they look clearly different, esp when it comes to section 5.1 and the charges, have they been creative with photoshop here, and sent me a current app form with my details scanned in ?

 

is what they have sent a current app?

 

Has what they sent be complied with the act? please help

 

this below is the first page i received, i have photoshopped out the address & name details

 

 

 

This below was the second page i received, i have photoshoped out the signiture & date details

 

 

 

 

 

This below was 1 page the original they sent me when they sent the card. the card was attached to the front of this document ( i have never signed it), it is as i received in in 2005. TAKE A LOOK AT SECTION 5.1 THE AMOUNTS ARE DIFFERENT IN THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT BELOW, TO THE ONE THEY HAVE SENT ME, ABOVE

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2008 by nuke em

[42man]

If nothing is signed....then they can't do much !!!

[nuke em]

on the 2 pages i received, i photoshoped out the signiture an date to remove personal info, i was just asking whether the prescribed terms are there

[Curlyben]

Yep that's a compliant CCA if ever I saw one.

All the prescribed terms are indeed present, so this would be easily enforceable.

[nuke em]

Yep that's a compliant CCA if ever I saw one.

All the prescribed terms are indeed present, so this would be easily enforceable.

 

 

Do you mean the 2 pager, they sent me or 1 page original doc i found in my files from 2005?

 

also does it matter that the 2 pager is headed up "application form"

 

plus what about the differences between the 2 pages they sent me & the 1 page orig i had from 2005, the 2 pager looks like a current amex document as opposed the 1 page 2005 document , have a look at the section 5.1 for example - charge for credit - the amounts are different

 

what i'm trying to say is that the 2005 - 1 page document would have been the only thing i could have signed at the time, the 2 pager that they have sent me looks like a current agreement/app form that creativly has my details on ( although i have earased them for this forum).

[The GodMother]

I hate to agree but i would say it is enforcable.

 

sorry asked a question whilest u were posting the answer

 

So your say in the application form from 2005 is different to the one they have send and the one they have sent has your sig on it?

Edited October 8, 2008 by The GodMother
asking a question which was answered whilest posting

[nuke em]

GM

 

the first 2 images are a scan of what i recently received from amex regarding my cca request, that had my name & the address on the first page & a signiture and a date of the second page - these are what i photoshoped out

 

the third image is a scan of the back page of a document i rec'd in 2005 with my card, this never had a signiture on it, i just found the document the other day when looking through my records.

 

the first 2 are what they sent me the last one is a historical document

[Curlyben]

The 2 page application is indeed your agreement, as this IS possible.

The 2005 single pager is simply the card bearer and NOT a CCA at all, simply T&C's.

 

The 2 page application, assuming you have signed it and it has your details is compliant.

[nuke em]

The 2 page application is indeed your agreement, as this IS possible.

The 2005 single pager is simply the card bearer and NOT a CCA at all, simply T&C's.

 

The 2 page application, assuming you have signed it and it has your details is compliant.

 

 

ok ( but not ok) CB, thanks for that ,, aaaaaaah

 

any mileage in the letter they sent me ( but i did not scan it) that said ( again below quoting from my original post) - the part about "original application form"

 

Dear Nuke Em

 

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your original application form as requested. Validation of the debt is provided by regular statements

 

i hope i have been of assistance etc

 

yours

 

amex

[The GodMother]

hang on here this seems strange. Are u saying there are a differance in charges from the 2005 document to the document dated 2007?

[nuke em]

yes i am , check out section 5.1 on both docs, different amount on each one, the one they sent me says in that section (5.1) £89, the original one says £115.49 how come? unless someone has ben playing photshop

[The GodMother]

I think u need to take advise bout this i have never actually come across this.

[nuke em]

ok thats what i thought, its strange i know,is there anyone on here you could point this in the direction of?

[The GodMother]

pt2537 or even Curleyben but make sure u explain what u have said to me and if they are confused tell them it is explainedon the thread.

[nuke em]

thanks GM, i will make them aware of this

[bobogosing]

yes i am , check out section 5.1 on both docs, different amount on each one, the one they sent me says in that section (5.1) £89, the original one says £115.49 how come? unless someone has ben playing photshop

 

subbing!

 

I have the same problem with one of my creditors:(

[The GodMother]

Have u PMd curleyben?

[nuke em]

no, i pm'd pt2537 but have not received any responce yet, should i do curleyben also ?

[The GodMother]

Yep its best u do.

 

All i am thinking is u may need to explain what has happened.

[nuke em]

ok, GM i have PM'd Curleyben, pointing out the

relevant posts

[The GodMother]

kk

if he does not get back to u then i will try and find someone else.

[Curlyben]

Got your PM and I must admit I think you are confused here.

The application form you posted from 2005 in post #4 is signed by you, has all your details and is compliant.

I see no relevance to the 2007 documents, other then the fact they have clearly updated the T&C's in the two years gap.

 

At the end of the day they have complied with your CCA and supplied an enforceable agreement, the heading is irrelevant as an application CAN be an agreement.

 

So where is your confusion ?!

 

Ps there is only 1 E in Curlyben