CL Finance/Cohen Claimform - MBNA [ryanair] Credit Card debt **WON**

[citizenB]

Hi CitizenB

 

Yes, i can't see why there trying to combine the two accounts.

It could be that thet can't find the true agreement, and by combining both together thinking there covering there tracks.

I've sen't them the letter what car4203 told me to send them, plus the Financial expences report you told me to send them.

That will keep them busy for a while

 

Gaz

 

I did have a thought on this.. I wonder if they are trying to do something along the lines of what has happened to PaulWilton and Sparkie where RBS have combined accounts ?. Another thing crossed my mind, if they combine the accounts it will look better as one rather than two if they attempt to sell it on

[Gazza112]

If they do try and sell it on, i hope they give me first offer:eek:

I may be able to russle up 10p.

 

Gaz

[robcag]

 

Here's the application form from MBNA .....

 

 

 

Hi Gazza

 

Regarding the above application, I think I asked you on another thread how legible is it? Can you actually read it, including the T&Cs column down the left hand side?

 

ISTR you were going to email a better scan/copy than the one posted to CIU for further opinion. Did you do that and what was the verdict?

 

If you cannot read it, then if that is the best quality copy that MBNA have then IMHO it will not be enforceable. If you can read it, I wouldn't mind seeing it if you would be so good to email me a copy. If you want to do that I could PM you an email address.

 

Cheers

Rob

[citizenB]

If they do try and sell it on, i hope they give me first offer:eek:

I may be able to russle up 10p.

 

Gaz

 

 

I think that is 10p for every £1.00 gazza.. But, yes wouldnt it be nice if we could settle some of it in that way.

 

Have a look at this for a good chuckle

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bear-garden/163933-youd-wish-you-had.html

[Gazza112]

Hi Robcag

 

Yes, the posts have got shifted around a bit.

If i rescan the docs to you, using a PDF format would that be ok.

Could you PM me your email address as i've not got it.

But the copies what i have scanned here are as bad as you can see on here. i can't read the Terms and condition, i don't think anyone can even if they had 20/20 vision.

I did send MBNA a letter about the CCA they sent out, which i posted up on Page 4 saying they had oblidgd me with a true copy. Also sent them another letter saying i'm happy what came out to me.

 

Gaz

[robcag]

Hi Gazza

 

If the scan you are making is of something you cannot read the original of (what they have sent to you), then unfortunately I don't think there is any point me looking at it, sorry.

 

Cheers

Rob

[Gazza112]

Hi robcag

 

Ok, so as i can't hardy read the terms and conditions from what they have sent out to me. Do you think there enforceable.

 

Gaz

[Hopeful1]

Documents should be legible.

[robcag]

Hi Gazza

 

I think this may have been explained before, but IMHO, if the document (application - allegedly an agreement) supplied is not legible, then;

a) They have not complied with your CCA request; and

b) It would not be enforceable.

However, do not count on them not having a legible (enforceable) copy.

 

You will recall that both CIU and myself were a bit suspicious that MBNA may be getting 'creative' with what they are supplying to people in response to CCA requests (regarding the fact that they may be pasting the T&Cs on the left hand side).

 

One of the things I had noticed about yours above (although I cannot actually read it) is the fact that MBNAs address is given twice on the 'document' (at the bottom). Those two addresses seem to be slightly different (can you see if the Postcodes are identical ??). In any case, why have the address twice at the bottom of the page? It seems a bit fishy to me!

 

Cheers

Rob

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Edited October 13, 2008 by robcag
spelling

[Chalkitup]

Hello All,

 

Sorry Gazza but I still stand by what I said before .... you will be on a sticky wicket fighting MBNA regarding the agreement which has the T&Cs on the left. It will be enforceable but it is a poor copy and difficult to read. I have magnified and studied the document and it matches others which I have looked at ........ the prescribed terms are there!!!

 

The separate T&Cs sent are up to date and not those in use at the time of signing but as the prescribed terms are on the signed form I do not think you will have a case with that.

 

As robcag has said above ... It is rather strange how suddenly MBNA are coming up with these off set application / agreements that have the terms on the left......... I have studied quite a few now and they all have the prescribed terms so far!!

Also as mentioned by robcag I suspect MBNA would come up with an easier to read document if needed.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Gazza112]

Hi Chalkitup

 

Thanks for your info on this MBNA, on the Abbey 2 pieces of info what do you think of them do you think there enforceable.

 

Gaz

[robcag]

Hi CIU

 

Presumably these alleged MBNA agreements are A4 sized? If so, with regard to our suspicions that there may allegedly be some creativity taking place, is there any indication that the 'main' part has been compressed sideways to allow the fitting of the T&Cs on the left? An indication might be a 'squeezed signature', but even that could possibly have been lifted off before the main part is compressed, and put back on again (i.e. Cut signature, 'squeeze' main part of document, Paste signature back on).

 

Then again, the original main part may have been narrower than A4 to start with .

 

 

One of the things I had noticed about yours above (although I cannot actually read it) is the fact that MBNAs address is given twice on the 'document' (at the bottom). Those two addresses seem to be slightly different (can you see if the Postcodes are identical ??). In any case, why have the address twice at the bottom of the page? It seems a bit fishy to me!

 

 

On the copy that Gazza sent you a while back (I believe), could you read the 2 postcodes I referred to above? If so are they different?

 

Cheers

Rob

[Chalkitup]

Hi Chalkitup

 

Thanks for your info on this MBNA, on the Abbey 2 pieces of info what do you think of them do you think there enforceable.

 

Gaz

 

 

Hello Gazza,

 

I have not received them! Have you sent them to me yet?

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Hopeful1]

There a few of us on this site who are suspicious of these docs. It's strange they have all started to appear at the same time.

 

On the basis that the doc is illegible, is it worth writing to them stating this and asking them to confirm that it is the document they will be relying on in court, just to see what they come back with?

[Chalkitup]

Hi CIU

 

Presumably these alleged MBNA agreements are A4 sized? If so, with regard to our suspicions that there may allegedly be some creativity taking place, is there any indication that the 'main' part has been compressed sideways to allow the fitting of the T&Cs on the left? An indication might be a 'squeezed signature', but even that could possibly have been lifted off before the main part is compressed, and put back on again (i.e. Cut signature, 'squeeze' main part of document, Paste signature back on).

 

Then again, the original main part may have been narrower than A4 to start with .

 

 

 

On the copy that Gazza sent you a while back (I believe), could you read the 2 postcodes I referred to above? If so are they different?

 

Cheers

Rob

 

 

Hello robcag,

 

Have to go out soon so will answer your questions in more depth tomorrow .... but when printed out these docs with the left hand column do not look correct. I just wish a Cagger could answer my request ...... i.e. did anyone take a copy their application form from MBNA around 2000 / 2002 ... and does it look like the ones we are talking about with the left hand T&Cs column? Then my mind would be at rest that they are not made up!!

 

Post codes look different ...... but on some forms there is only one address and on others there are two with the same post code. The forms all look off center ...... no evidence of compression sideways of main part .... more likely just reduced in size ..... However the spaces for customer answers seem small on a few of them.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Gazza112]

Hi Rob

 

It has been squeezed, i should emagin approx 30%.

I can tell as my signature is alway big and bold, i would never write that small. And as you said if it was scaled up to the original size the T/C would be of the paper using A4. I'm still trying search to find my original agreement from Ryanair that i signed for when i took it out.

 

Gaz

[robcag]

Hello robcag,

 

Have to go out soon so will answer your questions in more depth tomorrow .... but when printed out these docs with the left hand column do not look correct. I just wish a Cagger could answer my request ...... i.e. did anyone take a copy their application form from MBNA around 2000 / 2002 ... and does it look like the ones we are talking about with the left hand T&Cs column? Then my mind would be at rest that they are not made up!!

 

Post codes look different ...... but on some forms there is only one address and on others there are two with the same post code. The forms all look off center ...... no evidence of compression sideways of main part .... more likely just reduced in size ..... However the spaces for customer answers seem small on a few of them.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

 

Hi CIU

 

I look forward to your reply tomorrow then .

 

I would have thought if the original main part was reduced in height as well as width, then that would make it less than A4 height, but I haven't actually seen one so you know better than me!

 

It certainly all seems a bit iffy.

 

Cheers

Rob

[robcag]

Hi Rob

 

It has been squeezed, i should emagin approx 30%.

I can tell as my signature is alway big and bold, i would never write that small. And as you said if it was scaled up to the original size the T/C would be of the paper using A4. I'm still trying search to find my original agreement from Ryanair that i signed for when i took it out.

 

Gaz

 

Hi Gazza

 

It would definitely be good, no, excellent, if you could find your original RyanAir application, it might help put an end to all this speculation .

 

I will wait for CIU to reply again tomorrow.

 

Cheers

Rob

[citizenB]

Rob, I saved the document to my computer, resized it to A4 and printed it out. There is no way you could read the print on the left hand side even if it wasnt distorted by the scan. I then tried increasing the size of the print. It became even more blurred ?

 

I dont think I can explain my thoughts very clearly however, looking at the document on the right hand side there is a white margin then the thick black edge.

 

The bottom of the document looks ok

 

The left hand side of the document has no white margin.

 

Now it is the top that looks a bit "iffy" to me. From the right hand side just above the heading CREDIT AGREEMENT etc there is an edge of page line, which doesnt go right across to the left because the squashed in column is there. Then there is another edge of page line that goes across the top of that that although broken goes right across the page. It just doesnt look right to me.

 

Even using a magnifying glass, I cant quite make out the addresses, however I think the one in the principal cardholders request and declaration it is the Wrexham Road address. I cannot make out the one at the bottom.

[robcag]

Hi cB

 

I'm just on my way out myself (I'm running late!) so I'll try and remember to get back to this thread tomorrow!

 

Cheers

Rob

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ATTENTION - The CAG is being sued for libel and therefore needs to raise money for a fighting fund.

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The donate button is near the top of every page. Please pass this important information on to other members.

 

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[Hopeful1]

Have just hunted through hubby's paperwork. His application is from early 2002. If Gazza is happy i will scan it here tomorrow?

 

It is ccompletely different. Hubby's says credit agreement at the top but has NO prescribed terms. This one was filled in at an airport.

 

There's a small section that refers to agreeing to be bound by the T & Cs but they didn't come in the SAR bundle.

[Gazza112]

Hi Hopeful1

 

Yes, please do no problem.

 

Gaz

[Gazza112]

Hi CitizenB

 

Christ, this is getting more like Shirlock Holmes:eek:.

I can just emagin you now, looking at the paperwork with your pipe .

Thanks for all your help:

 

Gaz

[Gazza112]

Hi Rob

 

Been looking through my old papers, the only thing i've come across at the moment is the first statement with the APR on it.

Now that should if i look, be the same APR on the agreement would that be right.

 

Gaz

[Docman]

Guys

 

I've just had a first look at this 'agreement'. There seems to be a slight bit at the foot of the date '14-02-03' is missing. Could the 'Ryanair' rectangle have been pasted onto a new sheet on which the T&Cs had already been sqeezed into the left hand side?

 

I think it is certainly worth asking if they are going to rely on this document in court, if it goes that far. Then ask to inspect the original by quoting the Civil Procedures Rule 31.14. If it does transpire that someone has created a document and presented that to a court in evidnce, well, game over I would say!