G E Money and Secret Commissions

[iconoclash]

Hi - interesting stuff - I have recently had dealings with Wragge and what I think about them cant be said !**?&&!! I have been trying to claim back a PPI from GE for over a year and they are using the limitations thing but I hadnt looked at the brokers side of it at all - will now dig out my papers and double check this. Also, am wondering about the brokers fee paid when we got our mortgage (different company) as we paid the broker also and there is a commission listed in the advance figures them him too.? will keep watching!

[frettful38]

You could send the broker a subject access request, I am still waiting for my reply. I have information already with me but need confirmation before I go any further.

I know brokers always get more than they tell us, and we have a right to know and if they don't disclose this information then they are in breach of their duty of trust to us and could be looked on as dishonesty and fraud

[frettful38]

The broker breached his fiduciary duty by not disclosing commissions paid by the lender for the introduction of the loan , and therefore the lender is also party to that breach. As no disclosure was made.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hi frustrated. Best of luck with everything, GE certainly deserve all they get.

 

Can I ask, how did you find out about the secreet commissions? the reason I ask is I have been trying to get subject access request documents from them for months for 5 accounts, All they have sent me is statements for the last account I had with them, a load of rubbish!!. Unbeknown to them, I still have some paperwork so I know that there are secret commissions. They repossessed my home, gave me no assistance when I needed it, piled on tons of charges and basically stitched me up big time.

 

I am in the process of going after them but its so frustrating when they wont send me the info I paid for.

 

Suzie

[frettful38]

an undisclosed commission which is totally secret, that is to say NEVER EVER disclosed, or even suggested that a commission may be paid to a broker , is dynamite

 

 

Quote:

Obviously if there has been no disclosure the agent will have received a secret commission. This is a blatant breach of his fiduciary duty but additionally the payment or receipt of a secret commission is considered to be a form of bribe and is treated in the authorities as a special category of fraud in which it is unnecessary to prove motive, inducement or loss up to the amount of the bribe. The principal has alternative remedies against both the briber and the agent for money had and received where he can recover the amount of the bribe or for damages for fraud where he can recover the amount of any actual loss sustained by entering into the transaction in respect of which the bribe was given. (Mahesan v Malaya's Housing Society [1979] AC374, 383). Furthermore the transaction is voidable at the election of the principal who can rescind it provided counter-restitution can be made. (Panama & South Pacific Telegraph Co. v India Rubber, Gutta Percha, and Telegraph Co. [1875] 9 Ch App 515, 527, 532-3).

the above quote is taken from Wilson & Anor v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299 (04 April 2007)

__________________

[frettful38]

You need to ask them for the underwriting sheet or other document containing any commission payments

 

they will scream and kick but that's their tough titties as you are entitled to it and if they don't give you it then you can seek pre action disclosure and get the court to order them to provide it

[brassed-off-2]

Watching with interest !!!

Had lots of niggling questions, popping into my head about the broker we used over the last few years, always had a feeling something wasnt quite right, too many things to mention...

 

luckily still have all the emails/paperwork they issued, am adding them to my list of SAR's as we speak..

 

GOOD LUCK ..all you guys that are further on than me!!!

[Pinky69]

My friend took legal advice and basically the lawyer wasn't interested -in addition to which his fess were £240 per hour, so she wasn't interested either! However, that hasn't stopped her. She has made a case to the lender that the broker was in breach of contract agency law and FSA Rules and they were an accessory to that breach (Wilson). The commission was a secret commission because the broker never mentioned it at any time, either verbally or in writing, and she has a witness to the whole transaction. It isn't enough for him to assume the client would assume there was a commission - he must prove he informed the client there would be both a commission and a fee. He breached the Data Protection Act in that he filled in the application form in front of my friend's employer, discussing all her personal details. Then recently he contacted my friend to say he could help my friend make claims against the lender for £450 - if that isn't abuse of professional relationship, I don't know what is. His first approach to her was by cold calling, which is against FSA Rules - no IDD, no KFIs. So we'll see - I'll keep you informed.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Fretful, they WONT cooperate in anyway shape or form. I have been waiting months for the info. All they have sent me is statements, nothing else for the last account I had with them, which they REPOSSESSED me.

 

I have had 5 different accounts with them within the last 12 years, 4 of which I know there is secret commissions.

 

I reported them to ICO, but they are a waste of space.

 

I guess my only option is to try through the courts to get them to comply, they know they are in deep water!!

 

Can anyone advise me how I go about the legal route?

 

Suzie

[frettful38]

Dishonesty, fraud, lies,cheating, pulling the wool over your eyes, concealing information, poor advice, negligence, call it whatever you like. It has happened and is happening. We all know that we have been a victim in some way or another, and the 64 million dollar question is now how to prove it.

 

Because without proof you don't stand a chance! OK fair enough maybe a lot of us are in debt because of ........(don't want to offend so leave this for you to decide)!

But are these people not guilty of anything? when people use brokers or any financial advisers for their needs do they not put their trust in to them, and expect to get the best advice possible. There maybe a few clever people out there who will do their homework before hiring a broker or anyone before putting their financial needs before them, but if your like me and still find saving a file to my documents is so amazing then call me a sucker for being so gullible.

Anyway,if you believe you are right then my advice to you would be to fight and don't give up, get as much as information as you can to prove it. My advice to you all is don't give up, sometimes you will get positive and negative advice, but if you think you are right then fight.

[magiciansgirl]

Hi all, still a bit confused about secret commissions. On my secured loan agreement the broker's fee of £2000 is clearly shown. However on a statement I got recently that amount is down as a 'disbursement' on my behalf, and there is a further sum of £2887 down as a 'payment' and sent to the same payee as above. Would this constitute a hidden commission then? I suppose the answer is to get an SAR to the broker... but do I tell them what I think I've found out or not? Any help gratefully received.

[frettful38]

Hi magicaingirl, do not tell anyone what information you have that is a big no no, why would you want to give them the ammunition to shoot you with. Just send them a SAR adjust it as it suits, do not tell them anything.

Because what you are doing is trying to gather evidence and proof to support your claim and if you tell them they will try and cover up what you are trying to un-cover, do you understand?

 

Keep trying to get as much as info as you can, and keep it hush till you are 100% sure you have a case.

[magiciansgirl]

Hi thanks, not revealing my evidence is what my gut instinct was. So it's an SAR to the broker then.

 

Kind regards, MG

[andrew1]

I just found out that the broker who actually admitted to me they had received a commission from the finance company in writing, has now gone broke and wound up....what happens to a claim for secret commission then, do you go after the finance company to retrieve it?

[the main man]

I think you would if I'm reading this right?

 

Wilson and Hustanger

 

Para 49

 

In Johnson the court ordered the solicitor to account for the service charge to his client. In this case the broker could similarly have been required to account to the defendants for the £240 commission he received from the claimant. But no such claim has been made against the broker and so, alternatively, the defendants have a claim for equitable compensation against the claimant as it procured the broker's breach of fiduciary duty. This mirrors the common law right to claim the return of a bribe as money had received.

[frettful38]

Well here is what happened to me yesterday. I had a phone call from Stephensons as I had them check out my secret commission claim.

Well they agreed with me a secret commission had been made and also said that if I was to put a claim against them for non-disclosure then Blemain Finance could ask for their loan back. If it went to court then Stephensons said that the judge would look at as to what difference it has made to me if any,

 

So your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. Basically I have a secret commission claim but if I kick up a fuss about it then my loan company could ask for all of their money back, catch 22!

 

These companies know how to play their cards right and I bet most of these companies who check out these agreements actually work for loan companies, so they can see what evidence people have and if they they do steer them in the opposite direction:rolleyes:

How clever is that hey? Fact is I have a claim but I am in no way in a position to repay the £35,000.00 we borrowed, what do you guys and gals think?

[Guest suziedarkness]

Fretful, I think you should do what I have done.

 

Go onto the Law Society website or give them a call and ask for a local solicitor that deals with contract law or consumer law.

 

Many will work on a no win no fee basis. This is what I have done and now, fingers crossed have a solicitor and barrister on the case.

 

Unfortunately, even though it is clear cut there are secret commissions, it is very difficult to try and fight that battle yourself and with these "claim farm companies" , I dont believe they truly do their best for you.

 

Dont give up!

 

suzie

[elizabeth1]

I do wonder whether this secret commission stuff would fall under the FOS at all.

 

I've had a couple of loans in past which have been through a broker and sure if I SAR broker there will be a secret commission on top of the broker fees etc.. - I'm not sure how to do this or whether I could on a loan already paid off etc..

[frettful38]

Thanks so much suziedarkness, I really appreciate that extra bit of advice. I will contact them today and see what they., if you don't mind me asking how what happened about your case please.

[nevos]

This sounds like fun, I'm about to take both the GE's for my charges. Over Xmas was a couple of payments late, GE sent a court repossession application and a default notice both dated the same day. Will be sending copies to the FSA.

 

Do we need to send an SAR to the broker in respect of the secret fees?

[frettful38]

I am not quite sure if you send a SAR to broker but I have just to see what information it contains.

[andrew1]

I just wrote to the broker and asked them directly. They kindly obliged with an answer!

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hi all,

 

The position as far as I am aware with regards to secret commisions is this:

 

You can act against secret commissions whether the account is still opened or even if it has been settled.

 

In the event of a partial disclosure as in the case of Wilson v Hurstanger, this means that the debtor was aware that a commission was going to be paid to the Broker but he was not advised how much it was. The amount of a commission must be disclosed to the borrower and they must sign to say the agree. This gives the borrower an informed choice as to whether or not to accept. As this was only partial disclosure and the account was still opened, the judge ruled that the commission fee plus interest had to be returned to the borrower. I think this would also be the case with closed accounts.

 

In the event of a complete secret commission, no reference at all is mentioned with regard to a commission and therefore is seen as a bribe. This would render any agreements voidable if they were still open and all monies paid would have to be returned. If it relates to an account that is now closed, then a court can render it void and again all monies returned. in both cases of full secret commissions, the loans would be treated as if they never existed which would mean that the lender would only get back what they originally lent, all other monies would be returned to the borrower.

 

In my own case, I have had several accounts with GE one which is a possible partial but maybe a full secret commission, the others are definately full secret commissions.

 

I am probably one of the worlds most gullable people with regards to loans and things and it never ever dawned on me in the past how Brokers made thier money.

 

Now I know, they dont work for nothing, they get paid whopping great commissions by lenders and the whole crux of the matter is, these brokers in the past arranged your loan with the company that was going to pay them the best commission, not the company that would suit your circumstances the best.

 

Anyone wanting to find out if they have been subject to secret commissions should in the first instance SAR their lender. The lender should send all information including underwriting sheet. Many wont because they know they are in deep water but eventually they will have to comply. GE have totally ignored my requests because they know they are in trouble.

 

suzie

[andrew1]

"the loans would be treated as if they never existed which would mean that the lender would only get back what they originally lent",

 

But how does one deal with the fact that the lender would get all their money they lent? Most people would not be able to pay back what they had borrowed as some of these loans paid off other debts directly to creditors prior to even getting the funds?...could this be a receipe for disaster as someone earlier pointed out?

[frettful38]

Very good question andrew1, this is exactly what has happened to me today. The loan company that I had check out my agreement agreed that a secret commission had been paid without my consent or knowledge.

They also said that if I challenged this claim of secret commission then the Lender could ask for their loan they gave to us back, how the hell would anyone do that?

 

We borrowed the money to pay off other debt so no way would we be in a position to pay it back, so what do we do? As advised by suziedarkness I will contact the Law society to see if I can find a solicitor to help us out. I will see what Stephensons send me as they said they have written to me and I should get their reply tomorrow and I will post it up for people to read.