CL Finance Court Summons For Bank Account

[albertini]

My brother has received a CC summons from CL Finanace in relation to an alleged HSBC bank account for £1400.

 

The situation was he had been paying nominal amounts every month to all creditors, but he reviewed his debt situation and wrote to all creditors asking for details of the debts owed, original agreements, statements etc.

 

Few of them replied including CL, who were handling an alleged HSBC bank account. In line with the procdures advised on this site after 30 days of non replies he stopped paying them their £1 per month.

 

He received a letter from them on friday asking for payment (no mention of the request for information letter he sent them that they defaulted on).

 

He was preparing a letter to them in reply pointing out they had ignored his request for information but this morning (following Tuesday) a CC summons has arrived!

 

Bar Stools!

 

So i just require for him some help in terms of procedures, way forward and possible defence bearing in mind this is for a bank account debt and not a standard loan agreement.

 

He has no idea about this account (it goes back 5 years or so) and if it is genuine he has seen no statements or anything to substantiate their claim.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited July 1, 2008 by albertini
Spelling!

[AndyOrch]

Hi

 

If you wish to read this thread it may assist in your brothers case

Fish Out Of Water needs Help - CL FINANCE/COHEN Claim Form

 

with regards to procedures etc

 

 

I trust the above helps

 

 

regards

Andy;)

[albertini]

Ok so now we've acknowledged service online.

 

We have denied all the debt as we have had no documentaion from CL that the debt belongs to bruv or that the amount they are claiming is genuine.

 

We've also written to Cohens for disclosure. Be interesting to see how they reply and if they do indeed disclose anything.

 

This one may be a little different to the normal defences posted on here as it relates to a bank account rather than a loan agreement. I recall that the burden of proof under CCA is lower for a bank account.

 

Still we'll see what develops. I'l post any updates.

 

I'm not sure if i should be lodging a "placeholder" defence right now. Should i leave it until i get some reply from Cohens?

[AndyOrch]

Albertini

 

What is the date on your Brothers Summons? Do you know the defence submission date?

 

 

 

Regards

Andy

Edited July 8, 2008 by Andyorch

[pt2537]

CL have a tendency of getting it woefully wrong and claiming for current accounts which are actually regulated credit agreements

 

have a read of this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/126111-cl-finance-ltd-recieved-8.html#post1601219 may be it will help you out

[albertini]

Andy

 

The summons we received is dated 30th June 2008. I think it was 14 days but by acknolweding we have extended it 28 days to 28th July.

 

PT

 

Thanks for this link i'll have a good read!

 

This one is sticking in my throat becuase of the way they can fire out a summons before they actually prove you owe the debt or the amount they claim.

 

Surely they should not be allowed to issue until they have provided all info.

 

In its current form the way these clowns are allowed to "shoot first and ask questions later" clogs up the entire legal system and appears to be totally vexatious.

[pt2537]

its not unusual im afraid for this to happen,

 

they should issue a claim after following the preaction protocols and thus if they had followed the PAP's then you would have all the info you need.

 

thing to do is check the account numbers, do they actually refer to a credit card or do they refer to a bank account

 

in most cases i have come across they have got themselves confused and have claimed for a bank account when its actually a credit card that they should be claiming for

[AndyOrch]

Hi

 

I fully agree with your comments.

 

I wouldnt advocate on waiting for a response to your CPR 18 request in preperation for your holding defence but start to draft one.Dont let this matter consume your time too much you seem to doing very well already.

Just post should you need further assistance

 

Regards

[albertini]

Just to recap, my brother was paying £1 per month to them and all otehr creditors. Following a review of his affairs we decided to CCA all creditors. Indeed CL got a letter on the 17th January 2008 asking for CCA details.

 

No reply after 12 or 30 days from CL. He heard nothing from them until he recived a letter from CL on the 30th June dated the 27th June asking for a payment.

 

The summons arrived the next day dated 30 June! so they sent a letter aksing for money about the same time they issued a summons.

 

Can they issue a summons whilst in default of a CCA request?

[albertini]

Thanks chaps!

 

Can you point me in the direction of a template "placeholder" and full defence that i can begin working on?

 

I guess if i submit a placeholder based on the fact they have given us no infomration about this account, i'm ok to amend that defence later when and if they send me the documentation under CPR?

Edited July 8, 2008 by albertini

[AndyOrch]

They shouldnt but I am afraid they do.

 

 

 

 

Regards

Andy:)

[AndyOrch]

Albertini

 

If you could type details of the Claiments P.O.C (verbatum) this would serve useful in advise to your proposed Holding defence

 

 

Regards

Andy;)

[albertini]

Sure. Here's What they've said in the POC:

 

The claimant’s claim is for the sum of £1423.611 being monies due from the defendant to the claimant under an overdrawn bank account originated with HSBC PLC under reference 402715/xxxxxxx and assigned to the claimant on the 28th December 2007, notice of which has been given to the defendant.

The account was maintained without sufficient funds to meet withdrawals made by the defendant.

The claimant claims the sum of £1423.61.

That account number looks like a bank aco**** number as it contains an HSBC sort code. That account my brother reckons goes back to 2001/2002.

However he does not know of the (if any) balance owing on there and indeed looking at other threads it will be interesting to see if this aco**** is showing a zero balance.

If there was a balance on there i can say with certainty it was nowhere near that level at which point the issue of penalty charges rears its ugly head.

As i said earlier it's hard to know when they issue proceedings without furnishing the details of what they're claiming for.

[AndyOrch]

Thanks for that Albertini

 

Ok just some points to consider:-

 

Is it not Statue Barred?

has your brother recieved a Default Note?

Has he recieved a N.O.A (Notice of Assignment)?

 

 

Regards

Andy;)

[albertini]

No, it's not statue barred as he's been making token monthly payments for some time, really in panic along with all his other creditors, rather than becuase he geuninely thought he owed this amount.

 

It was only when i encourgaed him to do a review on his creditors that it came to light we had no documentation or evidence about this alleged debt hence the CCA request back in January.

 

No default notice or NOA were received either.

[AndyOrch]

When did CL assignment kick in from HSBC?

 

 

 

 

Andy:confused:

[albertini]

Well according to their POC it's 28th Spetember (not December as i've listed above) 2007.

 

But without a document from them i can't confirm this.

[AndyOrch]

Ok thats fine Albertini ,I would suggest you have a good look round the site and prepare an holding defence in view of non complience.Pay particular attention to Cl fin cases and their sols to get a feel how this shower operate

 

Just post should you require clarification someone will pop in to assist

 

 

Regards

Andy;)

[havinastella]

Albertini,

 

May be a good Idea to sar the Original Lender and find out what charges are on the account.

 

No better defence than a counter claim

 

Jogs

[albertini]

Right, i've had a trawl around the site and i've come up with this as a temporary place holder defence.

 

Thanks to PT for this which he drafted for another poster. Can anyone confirm that it's ok for me to use as a placeholder as we think the account in question is a bank account rather than a loan?

 

Once i have posted this to the courts via their online systemdo i then have to inform the court to change the defence if we do indeed receive any info in from the claimant or their sols or cna i go back in and amned the defence?

 

 

• Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.
  

• The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -
  

• The claimants’ particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;
  

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any Notice of Assignment required to allow the claimant a legitimate right of action, or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant’s claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and do not know what case I have to meet.

 

 

• Further to the case, on 31/07/2008 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a list of charges applied to the account.
  

• It is the case that the claimant has not responded at the point where this defence is filed so I am not in a position to submit a full defence to the facts at this point. I therefore respectfully ask that the court grant me permission to amend this defence when I have received the necessary information.
  

• I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)
  

• Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but would also give rise to a potential counterclaim for damages where damage occurs to my credit rating (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119)
  

• Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to asses if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to asses if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974
  

 

• In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.
  

• Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph 6 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.
  

 

 

All feedback welcomed and appreciated!

[albertini]

Yesterday we got the now obligatory letter from Cohen's saying "don't need more info...blah...blah all detail in the summons...blah blah"

 

Really? Well where's the original agreement? Where's the statements, list of charges?

 

So what they are saying is that by sticking " you owe us approx £1500" on a summons document that's all they need to do to get judgement!! Forget proof or unlawful charges.

 

Muppets.

 

Right can anyone advise my next move. Questions i have are:

 

1) Do i write back to the Cohen's or not?

2) Do i amend the defence above to include the fact that they won't give me any info?

3) If so can anyone suggest what i should add to the defence to highlight the fact they won't give me any information?

 

Many thanks!

[albertini]

Based on the fact they've given us no info under CPR i've reworked the defence accordingly. Please can someone advise if it's ok to submit:

 

• Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.
  

• The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -
  

• The claimants’ particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;
  

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any Notice of Assignment required to allow the claimant a legitimate right of action, or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant’s claim.

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and do not know what case I have to meet.

5. Further to the case, on 31/07/2007 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Bank Statements and/or Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments made by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the Deed of assignment and Notice of assignment

• The claimant replied to my request for disclosure on XXXX and I submit their reply as evidence (WH01). This reply clearly shows that the claimant has failed to comply with my request for disclosure entirely and it is suggested that such failure highlights that there is no case for me to answer.
  

• Further I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)
  

• Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but would also give rise to a potential counterclaim for damages where damage occurs to my credit rating (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119)
  

• Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to asses if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974
  

• In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.
  

• Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph 5 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.
  

[albertini]

***BUMP***

 

Please can advise whether this is accpetable to submit as my defence? i need to submit today.

 

Many Thanks.

[AndyOrch]

• Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.
  

• The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -
  

• The claimants’ particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;
  

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any Notice of Assignment required to allow the claimant a legitimate right of action, or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant’s claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

(never do not required Northampton Bulk centre restrictions take out)

 

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

(never do not required to Northampton Bulk centre restriction take out)

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and do not know what case I have to meet.

 

5. Further to the case, on 31/07/2007 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Bank Statements and/or Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments made by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the (Deed of assignment Take out not required to disclose this at this stage) and Notice of assignment

 

 

• The claimant replied to my request for disclosure on XXXX and I submit their reply as evidence (WH01). This reply clearly shows that the claimant has failed to comply with my request for disclosure entirely and it is suggested that such failure highlights that there is no case for me to answer.
  

 

• Further I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)
  

• Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but would also give rise to a potential counterclaim for damages where damage occurs to my credit rating (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119)
  

• Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to asses if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974
  

 

• In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant’s statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.
  

• Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph 5 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.
  

Just a few amendments Albertini i would suggest IMHO

 

 

Regards

Andy:cool:

[AndyOrch]

I would also start your defence using the following statement:-

 

1. The particulars of claim discloses no cause of action and are self evidently an abuse of process, in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR (even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system).

 

2. Further to that above the defendant is unable to plead effectivley or at all. The defendant is embarassed.

 

 

Remove the first 3 bullet points

 

 

Regards

Andy:)