Lloyds v Me

[Viano]

Ta!

[Viano]

Good afternoon all,

 

Now, my opponents admit to having no copy of a DN, and more importantly to having destroyed the original aplication/agreement, what I am looking for is the definitive wording that says no original agreement no case. can some point me, please, to this information.

 

I'm sorry to ask such a basic question but at the moment I can't see the wood for the trees.

 

V

[citizenB]

I know the quote you want.. just looking BRB

[citizenB]

Is this what you want ?

 

16 7.3

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION – STATEMENTS OF CASE - Ministry of Justice

[citizenB]

Have asked site team if they know of anything else.

[Viano]

Hi cB,

 

Thanks for the rapid response.

 

No, some where it must be laid down that if the Claimant does not have an original of the agreement to produce in Court then they do not have a case.

 

It's often said on here - no agreement no case - thats what I' looking for in black and white.

 

I've gone snow blind looking!

 

V

[citizenB]

Ok, I will continue the hunt.

[citizenB]

Viano, I dont know whether any of the following will help.

 

This was taken from a skeleton argument for an appeal

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/212396-trying-set-aside-judgement-22.html#post2444961

 

THE COURTS POWERS

 

1. Failure to comply with Civil Procedure Rules Part 16 paragraph 7.3

The Respondents failure and subsequent inability to comply with the Civil Procedure Rules fatally undermines their claim. The destruction of the original document and the lack of a duly authenticated copy makes the claim unsustainable, as such it is respectfully requested that in these circumstances the court strike out the Respondents claim.

 

 

This refers to the Civil Evidence Act 1995 Which you will find here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/162535-documents-court-civil-evidence.html

 

 

[e) if copies of any of the above documents are to be relied on in court rather than originals, a copy of the Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence required under s2(1) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 together with proof of the authenticity of the document(s) as required under s8(1)(b) of the Act, including but not limited to

 

(i) a copy of the procedure(s) used for copying, storing and retrieving documents

(ii) a copy of the relevant log entry showing the time and date of the scan or copy, the name of the member of staff making the copy, the method used for copying, storage and retrieval and time and date of destruction of the original document(s)

(iii) copies of internal and external audit reports covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedures have been complied with

(iv) copies of Quality Assurance accreditation certificates covering the entire period from the date of the copy to the present to demonstrate that the procedure(s) and audit process(es) comply with the appropriate quality standards

HTH

[Viano]

Hi cb,

 

Fabulous thanks a million, that more than backs up x20s argument.

 

Back to cooking my dinner now!

 

V

[Viano]

Hi all,

 

Back in circulation again!

 

A minor update-'took WS to SCM, was told by a member of staff "don't be surprised if this is stayed as a lot are due to numbers and Courts all 'round the country are waiting for direction"

 

Then I received a letter to my 31.14 request for a DN.

 

I quote " We enclose a Default Notice template received from our Client now disclosed pursuant to CPR 31 11(2).

 

Further, we understand our Client has located an original Credit Cards brochure as referred to in paras xx xx-xx of the amended PoC's. This original brochure will be available at trial.

 

Now I ask , are they really going to rely on a template? - and if I take an original brochure of a Ford Fiesta can I make that available at Court, and, will it make any difference??

 

Comments appreciated.

 

Viano

[citizenB]

Hi all,

 

Back in circulation again!

 

A minor update-'took WS to SCM, was told by a member of staff "don't be surprised if this is stayed as a lot are due to numbers and Courts all 'round the country are waiting for direction"

 

Then I received a letter to my 31.14 request for a DN.

 

I quote " We enclose a Default Notice template received from our Client now disclosed pursuant to CPR 31 11(2).

 

Further, we understand our Client has located an original Credit Cards brochure as referred to in paras xx xx-xx of the amended PoC's. This original brochure will be available at trial.

 

Now I ask , are they really going to rely on a template? - and if I take an original brochure of a Ford Fiesta can I make that available at Court, and, will it make any difference??

 

Comments appreciated.

 

Viano

 

You sure you want comments

 

Perhaps you can take a template driving licence /birth certificate and ask if they would rely on them for opening a bank account the giving of credit !.. sheesh.

[Viano]

Hi again all,

 

Update of my situation!

 

I've lost all of my relevant (stored) info. so please bear with me.

 

The main questions,

1, how detailed do my skellies have to be, i.e. do I include every thing I'm

going to use in Court,

2, I have discovered several £hundreds of "charges" - late payment etc.

included in the claim amount, do I include this in the skellies, and how

do I introduce this,

3, there are also anomalies in their witness statements, can I use these as

well.

 

I aim to get this in the post for last post Friday.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

V

[citizenB]

Hi again all,

 

Update of my situation!

 

I've lost all of my relevant (stored) info. so please bear with me.

 

The main questions,

1, how detailed do my skellies have to be, i.e. do I include every thing I'm

going to use in Court,

 

Yes

 

 

2, I have discovered several £hundreds of "charges" - late payment etc.

included in the claim amount, do I include this in the skellies, and how

do I introduce this,

 

It might be a good idea to point out that the figures they have are wrong and why

 

3, there are also anomalies in their witness statements, can I use these as well.

 

Yes

 

I aim to get this in the post for last post Friday.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

V

 

What have you lost by way of stored information ?

[citizenB]

Ref your charges.. I hijacked this point from someone elses witness statement

 

 

The claimants claim also includes charges. These are default charges levied on the account for alleged late payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 [The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.

[Viano]

Hi cB,

 

Thanks for your rapid reply.

 

I've lost all my bookmarks (amongst other stuff) which had all the info gleaned from other CAGgers posts.

 

Do I set these skellies out in chronological order, or in relevance order, that is in order of importance ie no prescribed terms, no DN, final demand etc etc.

 

V

[citizenB]

Hmmm, I dont know the answer to that, Viano. I would imagine that you set it out as you would your defence or witness statement in date order. I will try and confirm that though

[Viano]

Hi Folks,

 

Can someone translate this for me please.

 

The parties shall make reasonable efforts to agree the contents of the trial bundle, to include all materials relied upon including a Case Summary and the Skeleton arguments and authorities and authorities supplied pursuant to this order, and the solicitors for the Claimant's shall produce such a paginated bundle and serve it on the Defendant by 4pm not later than 3 and not earlier than 7 days before the xx xxx xxxx at 10 am. The Trial Bundle shall be filed with the Court with sufficient copies for the Judge and any witness by 4pm on not later than 3 and not earlier than 7 days before the trial.

 

Question 1, What is a Case Summary and to whom should it be sent?

 

Question 2, Do I have to produce a Trial Bundle?

 

Viano

[citizenB]

I have seen a similar question somewhere, will go and have a look for it.

[Viano]

Thanks cB

 

V

[citizenB]

I dont know whether the following will be of help.

 

It is my understanding that you need to put your bundle together, send a copy to the other side and THEY have to put the whole thing in another bundle and send you back a copy.

 

 

 

 

 

Found this on a website. this should help anyone else with similar directions as mine.

TRIAL BUNDLES 39.5 (1) Unless the court orders otherwise, the claimant must file a trial bundle containing documents required by ---

(a) a relevant practice direction; and

(b) any court order.

(2) The claimant must file the trial bundle not more than 7 days and not less than 3 days before the start of the trial.

 

BUNDLES OF DOCUMENTS FOR HEARINGS OR TRIAL 3.1 Unless the court orders otherwise, the claimant must file the trial bundle not more than 7 days and not less than 3 days before the start of the trial.

3.2 Unless the court orders otherwise, the trial bundle should include a copy of:

(1) the claim form and all statements of case,

(2) a case summary and/or chronology where appropriate,

(3) requests for further information and responses to the requests,

(4) all witness statements to be relied on as evidence,

(5) any witness summaries,

(6) any notices of intention to rely on hearsay evidence under rule 32.2,

(7) any notices of intention to rely on evidence (such as a plan, photograph etc.) under rule 33.6 which is not ---

(a) contained in a witness statement, affidavit or experts report,

(b) being given orally at trial,

© hearsay evidence under rule 33.2,

( any medical reports and responses to them,

(9) any experts' reports and responses to them,

(10) any order giving directions as to the conduct of the trial, and

(11) any other necessary documents.

3.3 The originals of the documents contained in the trial bundle, together with copies of any other court orders should be available at the trial.

3.4 The preparation and production of the trial bundle, even where it is delegated to another person, is the responsibility of the legal representative5 who has conduct of the claim on behalf of the claimant.

3.5 The trial bundle should be paginated (continuously) throughout, and indexed with a description of each document and the page number. Where the total number of pages is more than 100, numbered dividers should be placed at intervals between groups of documents.

3.6 The bundle should normally be contained in a ring binder or lever arch file. Where more than one bundle is supplied, they should be clearly distinguishable, for example, by different colours or letters. If there are numerous bundles, a core bundle should be prepared containing the core documents essential to the proceedings, with references to the supplementary documents in the other bundles.

3.7 For convenience, experts' reports may be contained in a separate bundle and cross referenced in the main bundle.

3.8 If a document to be included in the trial bundle is illegible, a typed copy should be included in the bundle next to it, suitably cross-referenced.

3.9 The contents of the trial bundle should be agreed where possible. The parties should also agree where possible:

(1) that the documents contained in the bundle are authentic even if not disclosed under Part 31, and

(2) that documents in the bundle may be treated as evidence of the facts stated in them even if a notice under the Civil Evidence Act 1995Acts has not been served.

 

Where it is not possible to agree the contents of the bundle, a summary of the points on which the parties are unable to agree should be included.

3.10 The party filing the trial bundle should supply identical bundles to all the parties to the proceedings and for the use of the witnesses

[Viano]

I read that as that it's only the Claimant that has to file a bundle. I wonder if pt knows better.

 

Para 2 in my post quotes the relevant part of the Court Order that's why I asked the question. As you can see it doesn't mention a Defendant bundle.

 

V

[kel123]

I am reading with interest.

 

I know this may relates to me but may be of use, any ideas what this means

 

(2) that documents in the bundle may be treated as evidence of the facts stated in them even if a notice under the Civil Evidence Act 1995Acts has not been served.

 

Kel

[Viano]

Hi Kel,

 

I don't know, but that Act so far as I can see is about hearsay evidence. I would think it's a wriggle. See Civil Evidence Act 1995 (c38) 4 (1) at Office of Public Sector Information

 

Hope that helps

 

Viano

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hi Folks,

 

Can someone translate this for me please.

 

The parties shall make reasonable efforts to agree the contents of the trial bundle, to include all materials relied upon including a Case Summary and the Skeleton arguments and authorities and authorities supplied pursuant to this order, and the solicitors for the Claimant's shall produce such a paginated bundle and serve it on the Defendant by 4pm not later than 3 and not earlier than 7 days before the xx xxx xxxx at 10 am. The Trial Bundle shall be filed with the Court with sufficient copies for the Judge and any witness by 4pm on not later than 3 and not earlier than 7 days before the trial.

 

Question 1, What is a Case Summary and to whom should it be sent?

 

Question 2, Do I have to produce a Trial Bundle?

 

Viano

Hi Viano

CitizenB has asked me to look in.

My understanding of trail bundles is that the claimant/applicant prepares the TB, the contents of which will include both parties skeleton arguments, authorities, witness statements etc., so that when at trial all parties, including judge, have the same bundle to refer to. By the time you receive your copy of the TB, it shouldn't contain any surprises. Setting out the TB correctly and filing a copy with the court is the responsibility of the Claimant so you needed have to worry about that.

 

I hope this has been of help. I'm off now but will keep an eye on your thread.

Robin

[Viano]

Thanks Robin, that's very helpful.

 

Viano