Morgan Stanley 2000 & Halifax 2000 agreement invalid

[Pat-Uk]

Good afternoon everyone,

 

I did post about these 2 accounts a while ago after having issues with the DCA dealing with these 2 accounts.

 

Anyhow after months of avoidance they did eventually send me the signed CCAs

 

Now My interpretation of the law is that a Lawfull Credit agreement should have several things.

credit Limit

Interest Rate

Repayment details

Terms and conditions

I was also under the impression that it was also required that a signature of the company accepting the agreement.

 

Please find below coppies of 2 "agreements" sent to me by the DCA, The Morgan Stanley one (first one) was sent to me so small that it is not fully readble, they reduced the size from A4 down to a quarter of the original size, it is not my fault it can't be read.

 

But I can clearly see that missing from the MS one is the interest rate all that is on there is a 3.9% balance transfer rate APR not a normal usage APR, And No credit limit also There is no signature of the company rep.

 

The terms and conditions appear to have been added to the bottom of the page.

 

Would this stand up in court as a lawfull agreement ?

 

The Second one a Halifax credit card

 

Better quality copy, but still missing what I was under the impression as vital componants.

 

No Credit limit, No T&C , No Interest Rate, No Repayment details.

 

Can anyone also confirm the legal status of this one.

 

Then on to my point, If these are considered invalid, can I then request and force the DCA to remove the defaults and all referances from my credit file.

 

Many Thanks in advance

[IdaInFife]

The first one, they do need to send you something legible.

 

The second one doesn't have the prescribed terms, apr etc.

 

I do not think these would be enforceable.

 

I would be inclined to send a letter back thanking them but clarify the points raised.

 

 

idax

[Pat-Uk]

Many Thanks for your reply

 

Could you or anyone else please confirm or show me where to find a definitive list of what MUST be included in a legal/enforceable agreement, I have seen it on here once, but my search on the site is so farcoming up fruitless.

 

Many Thanks once again

[PGH7447]

The scond one clearly states Application form, so it is not valid IMHO, they should have sent out a proper agreement ifthey approved you for this card

[diskmandave]

 

Could you or anyone else please confirm or show me where to find a definitive list of what MUST be included in a legal/enforceable agreement, I have seen it on here once, but my search on the site is so far coming up fruitless.

 

Is this what you're looking for...

 

S61(1)(a) CCA provides that, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations under s60(1) – see Q1.14.

 

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a) and s127(3) – see Q8.2.

 

8.2 What if prescribed terms are missing or incorrect?

 

s127(3) provides that the court may not make an enforcement order unless a document containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor – see Q1.21.

 

If therefore any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

 

8.3 What are the prescribed terms?

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

 

* amount of credit – see Q8.

 

* credit limit – see Q8.5

* repayments – see Q8.9.

* rate of interest – see Q8.6

 

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

Best wishes, Dave.

[Pat-Uk]

Many Thanks PGH, I Hoped that would be the case, and big thanks to DiskmanDave, yes that is exactly what I was looking for.

 

I'm in a letter writing mood

[IdaInFife]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

the above link is useful to keep to check any future supposed cca responses

 

 

ida x

[Pat-Uk]

Just a quick update.

 

I sent the following letter to them by recorded delivery on 26th June 2008

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Please find attached copies of CCA requests sent to you on 19th Feb 2007 by registered post, You eventually supplied documents which you claimed to be the documents I requested well outside the legal time limit, As a result I started investigating which course of legal action I was going to take.

As a result of my investigations it turns out that the documents you have supplied do not meet the requirements of the CCA request I made over a year ago.

 

Firstly the Morgan Stanley documentation is not fully legible, it has been reduced in size to such a level it is not readable.

Secondly the Halifax documentation that you have supplied does not meet the prescribed terms of a Consumer Credit Agreement, so legally it is not a valid CCA. I’m sure you do not need me to spell out what is meant by “prescribed terms” if you are unsure please contact your own legal team, If they can not shed any light on it then you may be in the wrong job but I will still gladly assist you with a link to the OFTs documentation.

 

This is what you are now required to do by law.

Supply true copies of the Consumer Credit Agreements for both accounts in full size an un-edited within the next 14 days. You are already outside the legal time frame for supplying the requested valid documents so 14 days is more than lenient.

If you are unable to do so then I must assume that the lawfully requested documents are subject to one of the following:

· Not available

· Not in existence

· Or no different to what you have already incorrectly supplied

 

If any of the above is the case then you must reduce the accounts to ZERO and arrange for all references to these accounts be removed from my credit reference file stored with the various CRAs failure to do so will leave you liable to legal action by several agencies, not limited to OFT, Trading Standards and the Data Commissioner.

This notification will be sent via Fax and Recorded delivery as both methods will provide legal proofs of delivery.

They have not bothered to reply so I am going to send the following tomorrow, Should I add anything further ??

 

 

Please find a copy of a letter sent to you on the 26th June 2008 by recorded delivery which was signed for and registered as delivered to which you have failed to respond.

You have failed to supply the documents as required by law in my CCA request dated 19th February 2007 a copy of which was included in my previous letter.

 

By the lack of any form of response I can only assume you do not have the documents or the documents you do have do not meet the requirements as set out in the Consumer Credit Act as they either do not have the prescribed terms or they are illegible copies.

 

Therefore can you please, confirm in writing that you will be setting the accounts to zero and removing all defaults registered, If you feel you are unable to do this for any reason please can you confirm this in writing and mark it as your final response in the matter so I may then pursue my own course of action.

 

Any help or comments would be great.

Many Thanks

Edited August 26, 2008 by Pat-Uk

[broken arrow]

The Morgan Stanley one also is an application form if you read the top line carefully, it says platinum application and is very similar to mine from late 1999.

 

I have read conflicting views on whether these applications are enforcable on various threads.

 

My CCA copy also had the T and C,s joined onto the bottom of the application, I do not no if these are on the other side of the application form.

 

In my T and C,s it stated a credit limit of £2000 yet mine was more than this, does yours give an amount.Should these figures not match.

 

One last thing I believe MS/Goldfish do not store hard copies of these documents, but that they are stored on microfiche, can anyone comment on this matter.

[dpick]

Hi microfiche is acceptable in court but even then it must be the full agreement MBNA fell down on this with me as they only kept the front of my agreement that was originally a BOS credit card. The page they copied did not have any of the prescribed term so was not enforceable.

 

dpick

[Pat-Uk]

Is it just my eyes not working or Can anyone actually read the terms and conditions or the application form on the Morgan Stanley one ??

 

 

As what they supplied me is just as readable as what is posted above, surely it must at least be a readable copy.

 

If not Am I wasting my time trying to get this wiped out ??

[toymaker1]

Hi microfiche is acceptable in court but even then it must be the full agreement MBNA fell down on this with me as they only kept the front of my agreement that was originally a BOS credit card. The page they copied did not have any of the prescribed term so was not enforceable.

 

dpick

Hi,

You may well be correct that microfiche is acceptable in court, but that does not alter the fact that the law stipulates that the copy document given to the debtor must be readily legible. If it is not readily legible it is not valid.

regards

Peter

[toymaker1]

Good afternoon everyone,

 

I did post about these 2 accounts a while ago after having issues with the DCA dealing with these 2 accounts.

 

Anyhow after months of avoidance they did eventually send me the signed CCAs

 

Now My interpretation of the law is that a Lawfull Credit agreement should have several things.

credit Limit

Interest Rate

Repayment details

Terms and conditions

 

I was also under the impression that it was also required that a signature of the company accepting the agreement.

 

Please find below coppies of 2 "agreements" sent to me by the DCA, The Morgan Stanley one (first one) was sent to me so small that it is not fully readble, they reduced the size from A4 down to a quarter of the original size, it is not my fault it can't be read.

 

But I can clearly see that missing from the MS one is the interest rate all that is on there is a 3.9% balance transfer rate APR not a normal usage APR, And No credit limit also There is no signature of the company rep.

 

The terms and conditions appear to have been added to the bottom of the page.

 

Would this stand up in court as a lawfull agreement ?

 

The Second one a Halifax credit card

 

Better quality copy, but still missing what I was under the impression as vital componants.

 

No Credit limit, No T&C , No Interest Rate, No Repayment details.

 

Can anyone also confirm the legal status of this one.

 

Then on to my point, If these are considered invalid, can I then request and force the DCA to remove the defaults and all referances from my credit file.

 

Many Thanks in advance

 

The Morgan Stanley documents is clearly marked as an application form - at the top, and just above the 3.9% logo.

It also is illegible - which is unlawful

Regards

Peter