Is this an enforcable agreement MBNA help urgent please *** WON ***

[clivey888]

ok i am now caking it, I have to somehow draw up the defence which is in previous note in witness form as requested by the judge, I also need to answer all the questions the judge has asked point by point and write a letter to be handed in as a matter of urgency as the court date is 8th Jan.

 

IS THERE ANYBOY OUT THERE THAT CAN HELP PLEASE?

Edited December 17, 2008 by clivey888
typing error

[clivey888]

ok i have just spoken to the courts again and what andy said about an application is correct and this is what the judge is asking, So my question now is taking all the above in consideration what are my chances of winning this case?

 

As i understand to this point in my favour is that:

 

1) The default notice you should be given 14days which i andy states i wasn't only 12!

 

2) The agreement is an application form (Or is it can someone confirm 100% that this agreement will or will not stand up in court)

 

3) The sum there asking for includes bank charges.

 

I would really appreciate someone helping me out here as i am well and truly out of my depth and worried sick if it is worth throwing £75 down the drain to defend a case i have no chance of winning, If i have no chance and best to accept what do i do?

 

So as i understand to this point or try to i need to do the following and require help to do so:

 

1) write defence in witness format as requested by judge

 

2) Apply for an application costing me £75 to amend defence.

 

HELP HELP HELP

[atwozee]

Hi clivey – you sound worried, please try to stay calm. You have a very good chance of defending this claim and I’m sure Andy will come along at some point to help you.

First, have a good read of this thread – it pretty much covers why an invalid default notice places a huge barrier to the claimant.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/170345-tale-dodgy-dn.html

[clivey888]

Hi Atwozee,

I am worried sick but am trying to stay calm, I have read the thread via link you provided and it does give a glimmer of hope to us all, With reference to my case i think Andy was stating that the default notice was served over the xmas period but did not account for the holidays ie:xmas day and boxing day therefore not giving me the full 14 days required, I ran this by the court but was told that they would feel that i was give sufficient time to respond holidays or not, This did come from a helper over the phone not a judge so i dont know if it is factual or just there incorrect opinon.

 

I will be glad the day i am debt free and stress free after so long and after being ripped off 30k which hadn't of happened i wouldn't be in this mess.

[atwozee]

I understand the worry – most people on here will. I say stay calm because you need to have a clear head to fight this. Panic causes mistakes and this is no time to panic. The facts are the only important thing and the fact is that the default notice doesn’t allow you 14 days plus service to remedy the breach detailed in the default notice – it has nothing to do with holidays – count the days from the date it was written to the date that it asks you to remedy the breach – don’t just take my word for it.

Whoever told you that you’ve had enough time is talking through their bottom. It is a legal requirement to allow you no less than 14 days from receipt of service to remedy any breach and this is detailed in schedule 2 of the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983

MBNA have proceeded to terminate your agreement on the back of an invalid DN and so the claim for the full balance is flawed. At best (and assuming the agreement is enforceable – big if) they will be able to pursue a claim for the arrears in the DN but as they include penalty charges then you can defend that claim as well.

The DN is referred to in the particulars of claim so its invalidity cannot be avoided.

My advice – pay the fee, amend your defence and claim it all back when you win.

[clivey888]

Thks for the advice,

I will do that but very much need help in preparing as a witness statement as question 6 by the judge quoted below:

 

6) if the defendent intends his new defence doc to be a statement then he should prepare it in the form of a statement

 

I have no idea how to word this or prepare it to look prof and to the judges liking, I have looked online as per the link but still none the wiser.

 

Really could do with Andy here right now as he knows more about this then i do and was advising what my defence grounds were.

[atwozee]

I could be wrong clivey but if you pay for an amended defence and submit it as andy detailed in the following post then that should be the end of the matter – maybe you can phone the court up and find out - if you are really worried then alert one of the mods via the triangle bottom left of any post in this thread.

 

Clive

 

The only way you can submit an amended defence is by way of the N244 (Application Notice).Only trouble is this application will cost you in the region of £75.00.The thought that springs to mind in your case though is that you have never actually submitted a defence except by way of your AQ,which really is unsual.

I would suggest a quick phone call to the Court who is processing your case and explain what i have stated and confirm if you are required to use the AN.

 

Keep your thread updated Clive.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[steven4064]

I think Andy's advice is completely sound - that is what you should do

[citizenB]

clivey, I am not sure I would be able to help you out with this. Did you hit the "panic button", the red triangle at all?. I would be reluctant to do this for you if you already have done so

[AndyOrch]

Hi Clive sorry for the delay in responding

 

Ok heres an example of a witness statement from one of my other threads.

It will give you the general idea of what is required and obviously you will have to edit to suit your case.

 

 

 

 

In the xxxxxxxx County Court

 

 

Claim number

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

xxxxxxxxxxx- Claimant

 

and

 

xxxxxxxx - Defendant

 

 

--------------------------------

 

 

Witness Statement

 

-------------------------------

 

 

 

1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement regarding my defence to the claim made by xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

3. The claimants' particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the nature of the written agreement referred to, the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant's claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof

 

5. In respect of that which is denied, on xx/xx/2007 I requested that the claimant provide a true copy of the executed credit agreement, which they claim exists between parties pursuant to section 78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1569) sets out that the claimant must comply with such request in 12 working days of receipt of such request. Copies of the letter and proof of delivery attached marked Exhibit theoldie1 &2

 

6. Section 78 (6) consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out the consequences of failure to comply with such request and states

s78 (6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)-

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

7. It is drawn to the courts attention that the claimant has failed to comply with my request and is in clear default of its obligations under s78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and it is averred that the claimant has no right of action until such time as the default is remedied and the true copy of the executed agreement is produced before the defendant containing the prescribed terms under Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and signed in the prescribed manner by the debtor and creditor

 

8. Therefore since the documents have not been supplied as requested pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I draw to the courts attention that this case should not be brought before the court as facts stand an Act of Parliament, in this case the Consumer Credit Act 1974, plainly enacted to protect the Consumer precludes a creditor bringing an action before the court where t hey have themselves failed to discharge their obligations under the Act. Therefore I suggest that the only just action that can be taken is the claimants case be struck out forthwith

 

The relevant Act of Parliament in this Case

 

9. Firstly I will address the issue of which Act is relevant in this case, in case it is suggested that the claim falls under the Consumer Credit Act 2006, it is drawn to the courts attention that schedule 3, s11 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 prevents s15 repealing s127 (3) of the 1974 Act for agreements made before s15 came into effect. since the agreement would have commenced prior to the inception of the Consumer Credit Act 2006, section 15 of the 2006 Act has no effect and the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is the relevant act in this case.

 

10. For the avoidance of any doubt I include the relevant section of the 2006 Consumer Credit Act

 

11 The repeal by this Act of-

 

(a)the words "(subject to subsections (3) and (4))" in subsection (1) of section 127 of the 1974 Act,

 

(b)subsections (3) to (5) of that section, and

 

©the words "or 127(3)" in subsection (3) of section 185 of that Act,

has no effect in relation to improperly-executed agreements made before the commencement of section 15 of this Act.

 

 

 

11. Therefore the Consumer Credit Act 2006 is not retrospective in its application and has no effect upon this agreement and the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is the act which this agreement is regulated by

 

 

The Request for Disclosure

 

12. Further to the case, on xx/xx/2007 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the Notice of Assignment required to give the claimant a legitimate right of action.

 

13. To Date the claimant has ignored my request under the CPR and I have not received any such documentation requested. As a result it has proven difficult to compose this defence without disclosure of the information requested, especially given that I am Litigant in Person ( a copy of the request is attached to this Defence marked theoldie 03)

 

 

The importance of a copy of the credit agreement and its production before the court

 

 

14. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 there are certain conditions laid down by parliament which must be complied with if such agreement is to be enforced by the courts

 

15. Firstly, the agreement must contain certain Prescribed terms under regulations made by the Secretary of State under section 60(1) CCA 1974, the regulations referred to are the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)

 

16. The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

1. Number of repayments;

2. Amount of repayments;

3. Frequency and timing of repayments;

4. Dates of repayments;

5. The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

17. It is submitted that if the credit agreement supplied falls foul of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) in so far that the prescribed terms are not contained within the agreement then the court is precluded from enforcing the agreement. The prescribed terms must be with the agreement for it to be compliant with section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. In addition there is case law from the Court of Appeal which confirms the Prescribed terms must be contained within the body of the agreement and not in a separate document

 

 

18. I refer to the judgment of TUCKEY LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

"[11] Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated

consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Sch 6, but some does not. Contrasting

the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said:

 

 

"33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which

are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the

minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1."

19. If the agreement does not contain these terms in the prescribed manner it does not comply with section 60(1) CCA 1974, the consequences of which means it is improperly executed and only enforceable by court order

 

20. Notwithstanding point 19, The agreement must be signed in the prescribed manner to comply with s61 (1) CCA 1974, if the agreement is not signed by debtor or creditor it is also improperly executed and again only enforceable by court order

 

21. Therefore the claimant must provide a copy of the agreement compliant with the regulations as laid out in points 14 to 20 of this defence to have any right of enforcement. I note that the claimant should also have provided this documentation prior to bringing this action and it is requested that the claimants case be dismissed until such time as they comply with the S78(1) request made on xx/xx/2007 as laid out in point 5,6 7& 8

 

The courts power of enforcement

 

22. The courts powers of enforcement where agreements are improperly executed by way of section 65 CCA 1974 are themselves subject to certain qualifying factors. Under section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the requirements are laid out clearly what is required for the court to be able to enforce the agreement where section 65(1) has not been complied with

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

 

23. Further more the courts attention is also drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482) the agreement cannot be enforced

 

24. With regards to the Authority cited in point 16, I refer to LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD in the House of Lords Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)

28.........I should outline the salient provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Subject to exemptions, a regulated agreement is an agreement between an individual debtor and another person by which the latter provides the former with a cash loan or other financial accommodation not exceeding a specified amount. Currently the amount is £25,000. Section 61(1) sets out conditions which must be satisfied if a regulated agreement is to be treated as properly executed. One of these conditions, in paragraph (a), is that the agreement must be in a prescribed form containing all the prescribed terms. The prescribed terms are the amount of the credit or the credit limit, rate of interest (in some cases), how the borrower is to discharge his obligations, and any power the creditor may have to vary what is payable: Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983, Schedule 6. The consequence of improper execution is that the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor save by an order of the court: section 65(1). Section 127(1) provides what is to happen on an application for an enforcement order under section 65. The court 'shall dismiss' the application if, but only if, the court considers it just to do so having regard to the prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question and the degree of culpability for it. The court may reduce the amount payable by the debtor so as to compensate him for prejudice suffered as a result of the contravention, or impose conditions, or suspend the operation of any term of the order or make consequential changes in the agreement or security.

 

29. The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order. The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

30. These restrictions on enforcement of a regulated agreement cannot be sidestepped.....

And further more

36. In the present case the essence of the complaint is that section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act has the effect that a Regulated agreement is not enforceable unless a document containing all the prescribed terms is signed by the debtor

 

49. ".............The message to be gleaned from sections 65, 106, 113 and 127 of the Consumer Credit Act is that where a court dismisses an application for an enforcement order under section 65 the lender is intended by Parliament to be left without recourse against the borrower in respect of the loan. That being the consequence intended by Parliament, the lender cannot assert at common law that the borrower has been unjustly enriched.

 

 

50. This interpretation of the Consumer Credit Act accords with the approach adopted by the House in Orakpo v Manson Investments Ltd [1978] AC 95, regarding section 6 of the Moneylenders Act 1927 and, more recently, in Dimond v Lovell [2002] 1 AC 384, another case where section 127(3) precluded the making of an enforcement order. In Dimond's case the restitutionary remedy sought was payment of the hire charge for a replacement car used by Mrs Dimond. The House rejected a claim advanced on the basis of unjust enrichment. Lord Hoffmann observed that Parliament contemplated that a debtor might be enriched consequential upon non-enforcement of an agreement pursuant to the statutory provisions. It was not open to the court to say this consequence is unjust and should be reversed by a remedy at common law: [2002] 1 AC 384, 397-398.

25. Since the judgment of Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead clearly sets out that without a credit agreement the claimant's case cannot succeed

 

26. Therefore I respectfully request that if the court does not dismiss the claimant s case as laid out in point 21, that the court order the claimant produce the original signed agreement before the court to show the form and content of it and that it complies with the regulations referred to in this defence, otherwise the courts powers of enforcement are surely limited in these circumstances

 

27. Should the claimant be unable to produce the original agreement signed by both debtor and creditor and containing the prescribed terms, I request that the court uses its powers under section 142 Consumer Credit Act 1974 and declare the agreement as unenforceable.

 

 

Conclusion

 

28. The claimant's case cannot succeed as matters stand. It is averred that the claimant and its representatives have acted unreasonably when dealing with this dispute. The claimant transferred the debt to ************ while the account was subject to a dispute, which is a clear contravention of the Office of Fair Trading Guidelines on Debt collection.

29. In view of matters pleaded, I respectfully request the court give consideration to striking out the claimants case pursuant to part 3.4

 

 

(2) The court may strike out a statement of case if it appears to the court -

 

(a) That the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing or defending

(b) That the statement of case is an abuse of the court's process or is otherwise likely to obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings; or

© That there has been a failure to comply with a rule, practice direction or court order.

 

30. If the court considers it in appropriate to use its case management powers, it is requested that the court order the claimant to produce the original documents before the court. Without production of the requested documents the case can not be dealt with justly and fairly, and will severely prejudice my rights to a fair trial

 

31. Having instigated these proceedings without any legal basis for doing so, having failed to provide sufficient information required under the pre-trial protocols in order to investigate this claim, or indeed to provide a reasonable time period to investigate this matter, and having failed to investigate a dispute as required by the OFT Debt collection Guidelines I believe the Claimant's conduct amounts to unlawful harassment under section 40 of The Administration of Justice Act 1970. Furthermore, the Claimant's behaviour is entirely vexatious and wholly unreasonable.

 

32. Should the court disagree with the suggestion to strike out the claimants case for the grounds set out. I respectfully request that the court allow me to amend my defence when the claimant produces the requested documentation and I am given sufficient time to inspect the documentation

 

 

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I xxxxxxxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................

 

Dated the xxth day of xxxx 2008

__________________

 

 

Just post if you are unsure of anything

 

Regards

 

 

Andy

[clivey888]

Hi Andy,

So glad your back, Thanks for the above, First impressions are wooooo were do i start, Andy Can you confirm what exactly my defence is?

 

You guys as far as i know said that the default is invalid due to 12 days not 14, The agreement is a application form (but states on it credit act) and also the sum includes penalty charges which i do understand.

 

sorry to be a pain and sound abit dumb but i really am struggling to get my head round this and don't want to lose before i even step foot in court in 3 weeks.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Clive

 

The defence i prepared further back in your thread is suffice to refute their P.O.C.

Confusion starts with the whole way your case as been handled.No defence submitted but AQ submitted.hearing dates set etc.

Your defence is as stated Invalid DN no date on the NoA the claim contains penalty charges.

I would advocate again you need to clarify with Court just how exactly they want your defence via a AN via a witness statement format?

As long as its in place by the hearing date,this has to be your ultimate ambition otherwise the Claimant will proceed for Summary Judgement.

Just to empasise again you cant amend your defence because you have not submitted one (unless they accepted what you put in your AQ)

The DJ as given you the options I would use my original defence and use the above template as your guide to suit.Add the header and finish with the statement of truth (this may be the page 2 missing they refer to)

The whole way your case as been handled is incredible and shambolic

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[clivey888]

Ok after reading the above witness statement Andy are you saying that i have not got a true copy of the agreement because it is a application for credit?

 

Could you explain why exactly the Default notice is invalid please as i dont understand.

 

Also what is the law with NOA why am i using this as part of my defence because it has no date on & where would i insert about this on the witness statement.

 

Lastly you right from beggining i have to pay £75 and make a application to amend my defence which is what the judge has asked and i shall do, I really need to get this spot on and hope the judge accepts even though i have minimal knowledge if that about what i am doing.

 

Sorry the person i spoke to at the courts on the phone stated that whoever dealt with this accpeted what was on the AQ as my defence hence the court date.

 

Thanks again

[AndyOrch]

Ok after reading the above witness statement Andy are you saying that i have not got a true copy of the agreement because it is a application for credit? If it does not contain the perscribed terms within the Signiture area or overleaf or refered to then its an application form

 

Could you explain why exactly the Default notice is invalid please as i dont understand.Because it did not allow the perscribed period to rectify the breach ie 14 days plus delivery and it also contains penalty charges

 

Also what is the law with NOA why am i using this as part of my defence because it has no date on & where would i insert about this on the witness statement.If the assignment is undated then you have no idea from what date the Claimant had legal right to persue te debt in their own name and again the amount would also contain penalty charges rendering the amount in question unlawful

 

Lastly you right from beggining i have to pay £75 and make a application to amend my defence which is what the judge has asked and i shall do, I really need to get this spot on and hope the judge accepts even though i have minimal knowledge if that about what i am doing.

 

Sorry the person i spoke to at the courts on the phone stated that whoever dealt with this accpeted what was on the AQ as my defence hence the court date.But the AQ cant be issued until your defence as been forwarded to the Claimant and then they notify Court they wish to proceed hence the AQ:confused:

 

Thanks again

 

If you post up Clive what you intend to submit as your final defence and I will give it the once over before you make your application.

 

I trust the above is of help

 

Regards

 

Andy

[clivey888]

Sorry Andy last one i promise, When i spoke to court they said £40 for defence to be amended if claimant agrees to allow and £75 if put before a judge for a decision, She did state and kept telling me i have a defence which what ever i put in the defence section on the N9b form is what they are refering to.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Clive what did you put on the N9b did it differ to the AQ?

 

 

Andy

[clivey888]

I put the following 12th Dec letter sent to eversheds requesting copy of consumer credit agreement including £1 charge to obtain info and as of date no reply.

 

Letter sent to mbna europe bank ltd chest business park requesting SAR and as of date no response, Request sent 12th Dec stated 14 days to obtain but now expired on 28th dec, Follow up letter to be sent to eversheds today.

 

Please postpone action until relevant info received.

 

Andy,

That is all i put total rubbish which i am quite embarrased about now as i had no clue what to do but because of my predicerment burying my head in the sand and the stress i was under i just went ahead and put that in (wrong thing to do i realise now).

[AndyOrch]

Ok Clive

 

Leave it with me and will adapt the original defence into the perscribed witness statement to attach to the N244.Will be over the weekend now so you can get it in before christmas.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[clivey888]

Will do many thanks Andy, The lady did stress to get it in by monday to stand a chance.

 

Many Thanks

Clive

[AndyOrch]

Not a problem keep an eye open Sat/Sun

 

 

 

 

Andy

[clivey888]

Andy,

Andy developments mates i should of been up the courts yesterday buddy?

[clivey888]

Ok i am well and truly buggered, Nothing doing and now xmas hols leaving me no time.

[clivey888]

Andy,

Not heard a thing from you since and i am in serious panic mode now as my court case is next week, HELP PLEASE

[Fred Bassett]

Clivey,

 

I think you ought to click the red triangle and ask one of the Mods to help.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[steven4064]

Clivey

 

A few posts ago, Andyorch asked you to post up what you intend to use as your defence. Can you do that, without it we cannot really advise.