Advantis Credit Help please!

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Fern.

 

Sorry, I have just re-read your thread, if this is for a Telephone account, have a look at this.....................

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed/70464-mobile-phone-companies-consumer.html

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[martin2006]

HI adam,

Regardless of all their jibber jabber the onus of proof that you owe anything remains firmly with them and until such proof is forwarded, ie an agreement, they cant prove jack. you have already sent them the letter penned by scabhunter so stick to what you have wrote in there.

I note they are trying to get you to prove you dont owe it!!! What a jokular bunch they are.

Forward it to the OFT to support your complaint to them.

[adamfernadam]

Helo again to everybody involved in this along the way! I thought id not be back here again but theres been another update unfortunatly and i REALLY need somebodys help...

 

After sending a leeter from what was suggested in the previous posts back in November, I have just recieved a letter today (7th March) dated 27th Feb 2009 from Advantis Credit once again. As i cant scan it i will write it out now so as al the details are there for anyone willing to help me so sorry for the long post again...

 

Dear...

 

We write in refrence to your account with our client Yes Telecom. We have previously placed your ccount on hold while an investigation took place and would now like to establish a resoloution to this account.

 

Your last comunication on this account was recieved by this office on the 2nd December 2008,regarding a default that you believed had occured under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA).

 

Having fully investigated this matter internally and with the co-operation of our client we can now provide all contractual documentation that is held relating to your account. It is believed that while a true signed copy of the agreement was not supplied within the 12 days set out by the CCA, sufficient documentation i.e the e-contract, were provided and as per the terms and conditions of the service rendered, has in turn implied a contract for usuage of services was in place.

 

Furhtermore the repeated direct contact between you and our client regarding the service used validate reciept and usuage of a service and confirm that an implied contractual agreement was in place and that all parties were aware of this.

 

We now enclose for your refrence the following documents that support this account was agreed,used and is now outstanding.

1.Copy of connection schedule

2.Copy of customer agreement (e-contract)

3.Copy of conection schedule

4.Copy of terms and conditions

5.Copy of audit trail

 

We now feel that our position and our clients position in recovering this balance have been clarified and wish to reach a speedy conclusion to this account. Your account will be placed on hold for a further 8 weeks, should we recieve no contact from you we will continue collection activity in recovering this debt, which may result in legalaction being taken.

 

Yours.... Advantis

 

 

Okay so now iv no idea what to do next and am really stressed out. Is it time to get legal advice? Is there someone on here prepared to look at it for me? Im realy struggling with this.

 

My points are that they missed the 12 days of the CCA which is surely not legal?

 

The connection schedule is a photocopy exactly the same as the one sent last time. THe only details filled in on the whole thing is my name, the address of my boyfriends old house (i never lived there) and a telephone number which is the oe for our current house? Then theres a signature on it which i swear isnt mine it doesnt even look anything like mine!!! The writing isnt even like mine. Then theres nothing else at all filled in.

The customer agreement is a copy same as last time. Name and address filled in and nothing else. It isnt signed or dated, bank details arent filled in and it also says i lived at that adress for 3 years. I never even lived there i had my own house i rented. My boyfriend lived there alone and form me meeting him for very 1st time to geting this house we are currently in was only about 6-8 months in total. Also as all documents are just dodgy photocopies surely this isnt an 'original signed copy' as asked for?

 

Next is a connection schedule whcih again has no dates or signatures, no invoice adresses etc nothing filled in except it shows the contract the work phone was supposedly on. Nothing else filled in.

 

Next is a photocopy of the general terms and conditions.These show the 'your right to cancel' as showing "you have the right to cancel at any time from the date you sign the customer agreement" which i never signed and the copy theyve sent has no signature on it.

 

Next is a screenshot from Yes Telecom website of an audit trail. Is shows Schedule created, Handset added, contract submitted from one IP Address at WearCom and then Contract Electronically signed but from another diffrent IP address with no user next to it??

 

Next is a screenshot from Yes Telecom an audit trail again. This shows Wearcom as the user being addd to Yes Telecom. Then thier credit is checked. Then additional handsets being requested. Surely this just shows Wearcom setting up an account then orsering more hansets like i said as they were all just our workphones??

 

Finally there is a copy of 4 emails sent between Advantis and Yes Telecom asking for informaton. Te information they were given is that a manual card payment was taken over the phone but they cant see whether it was the business partner or customer who paid. That i called them to confirm my bank details after they had been given by Wearcom. That i called them as the phone was faulty. That i sent the faulty phone to Yes and a new one was sent out to me at work. That they were advised by a letting agent that the adress they had on conract was worng as i was the girlfriend of the official tenant. That is was then sugested that i was just an employee of Yes Telecom whos contract had since been cancelled with Yes (as in when they went bust i assume). It also says they had no signature from me, an IP adress was logged (Wearcoms), the sevice was used and they had 2 phone calls off me (when the phone was broken) and so this is enough to validate the customer using the service which can be argued in court succesfully as implied contractual agreement. It also says Wearcom was terminated from Yes due to bad practice (it went bust) and if i was indeed an old employee of Wearcom then "it does indeed add another angle to this. Fern certainly knows the ins and outs, and the right things to say it seems" How can they be allowed to say that??!!

 

I am extremely sorry for the really long post, but i had to write every detail. I need somebody to be so kind as to read through carefully this post and my full story if needed and to advise what to do next. I have no problem sending copies to anyone willing to help or paying any professionals or offers to help me out or if i need legal help now etc.

 

Il be extremely grateful to anyone willing to continue to help me out. Thankyou in advance to everybody.

 

Fern

[adamfernadam]

anybody?

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Fern.

 

 

I'm going to move your thread to the Telecoms Forum, I'm sure someone in there will be able to help you.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[adamfernadam]

Thanks maroondevo,

 

I hope somebody in here will help me out now its been moved to here, sorry you may have to re-read the whole story as its been in the DCA section for a long time now. Thankyou in advance to anyone willing to help a very stessed out lady?

[locutus]

My advice is that this is all hot air They will be laughed out of court trying to get money without sending you proof that you owe any! Did you make a complaint to the OFT about them hinting that it is a court that is writing to you?

[adamfernadam]

Yes there has been a complaint sent to Ombudsman and also Trading Standards who were investigating them last time we heard due to a high number of complaints.

I am sure if it did go to court as you say there wouldnt be a chance of them getting it, but id prefer it to be sorted before that stage if possible.

No offence to you locutus thanks for your reply, but this has been going on for almost a year on and off and been posted in the debt collection agency section, and as is now down to the small details it seems (as i listed in my long post previously) i wonder if theres anyone who can help me out with what to try next either by looking at the case, advising legal help, offering to look at it themselves, or in ANY other way possible as im getting really really stressed out...

 

Many thanks to anyone who can help, Fern

[buzby]

There's been a lot to take in - but here's my take on the situation as outlined in the original posting (when in the debt forum).

 

There is/was no need to be on the electoral register to get any telecom service. Moving to the UK from the Isle of Man would simply be treated as a change of address. If you had a credit file le entry there, it would be updated with your new details when you ordered a new service and the supplier confirmed you were one and the same and you address was updated, so your firm at the time arranging service was neither a requirement not necessity, but clearly if they had arranged a good deal for their staff and a corporate rate, the only way you would have got this was to sign up with them. )This always assumes they were not the primary contract holder).

 

Now, I'm not clear whether this was for mobile only (or indeed both mobile and landline) but the only issue of note would be whether the services were being paid for by your company (as an expense of their responsibility) by you, and you claimed the costs back as an employee's expenses, or wholly by you as a customer of Yes.

 

The first case means you have no issue to address, it is your former employer's problem. Any payments made for service would be by them and not you (in a personal capacity) However in this day and age the last two are more likely, and irrespective of whether you signed a contract of service or not, you would remain personally liable for any costs outstanding.

 

I don't know how the CCA became involved in this, as you may only had a service contract for comms, you never 'bought' money, which is the only thing the CCA covers, so your application for information under this, and their lack of rejection was just a side show of no consequence.

 

With your firm in liquidation, you remain an easy target to pursue, as the firm cannot be once wound up. It is not uncommon for firms to try and force payment for any source, even if they are not responsible.

 

Your letter, where your firm asks for the return of the handset to my mind establishes without doubt who is responsible for the debt, and it is this and ONLY this that you need to supply to disprove their claims.

 

I would also get your Credit File checked and discover had it shows - if you never personally entered into the contract yourself, then you have noy provided them with permission to report your use. Should you find this data, you write to the CRA demanding its removal, and provide a copy of the letter from the firm, as evidence.

[adamfernadam]

Hello buzby, thanks for taking the time to look into my problem its greatly appreciate, sorry i didnt get back sooner...ok...

 

To help with your outlook on the case it was just for a mobile phone, not a landline aswell. The phones were given to us all while we worked there everyone in the building was given one. I remember mine just being given to me with work numbers etc all entered into it and it was only ever used for work calls etc. I can remember taking the mobile back to a partner in the firm once we knew they were going into liquidation and i was leaving and them teling me theyd sort it out same as everybody elses. I didnt recieve any bills even after that. I heard nothing for months until this DCA got onto me out of the blue. Everyone involved with the company has now dissapeared off the face of the earth it seems. With regards to payments the payments were taken from my bank, however it was the company director who gave the details to them from my wage information and not myself. I cant remember if i claimed back as expenses, i think i may of but the truthfull answer is i dont remember it was so long ago.

 

The CCA was used on advice from previous posts to me during this case. I can see now after your explanation why that may not of made sense.

 

The letter to me from my previous company regarding them wanting the phone back i have no idea where it is as i stated in a previous post or even if i still have it. I realise how important this is but unsure of what to do. Its not as if i can even get another copy or see record form WearCom as it all dissapeared.

 

I check my credit file regularly and just checked again tonight i can see no mention of Yes Telecom or even Wearcomm on there at all and it dates back 6 years...how relevant is that?

 

Buzby dont yout think after reading the all the post about how how things have been dealt with theres nothing to go further with..i.e all the missed deadlines, demanding money while the account was still in dispute, telephone harrasment, huge increase in sums, even thier staff laughing at me down the phone 1st time i rang saying theyd now got my address, d.o.b etc etc?

 

I also understand your point about the contract i may have without knowing about it. The forms they sent me though are a customer agreement which isnt signed or dated or anything really and a connection schedule which somebody has filled in my name etc and signed it. Surely that is illegal ? The signature isnt even mine as is the writing its not even my name spelt right on the signature!

 

Also on the audit trail it has the order coming from a diffrent IP address and then being asked for more handsets i assume by the company directors..it wouldnt be me (an employee) ? Even the copies of the emails iv got has them saying that they think i was just an employee whos contract had been cancelled due to bad practice by Wearcomm i.e they went bust.

 

But after all that if im way off the mark and somehow it is legally my problem it will be awful as i feel the companies directors have caused this problem by not doing what they said which would leave me with a huge sum i cant afford to pay. If that IS the case then what would i do? Would i make a full and final offer? Its now gone form approx £200 up to something like £1100 i think it said on the last letter?

 

Sorry for the long post again...really appreciate your help..any other questions please ask thanks to you all

 

Fern

[buzby]

I wouldn't say you are in a great position, but I've seen a lot worse!

 

From what you describe this was a company mobile in all definitions of the name. Further, you won't have been taxed on it (as a benefit in kind 'perk) so this will also assist in proving that the phone was not provided by the firm for personal use.

 

The tactic now is to reject outright that you ever entered into a contract and to state that you are not responsible for the arrangements the company made with its mobile supplier. If you know who the liquidators are/were, pass on these details.

 

If you know of any other staff who were in a similar situation, contact them and see if they've got the same problem. Do a Google search of any unusual names or even the firm name to see if the directors were involved in other less 'straightforward' transactions - all this additional knowledge will assist you.

 

Because there's nothing on your credit file also it a good sign, and it looks to me as this is simply a DCA attempting to bump up its revenues by getting anyone associated to pay up, whether they are legally liable to or not.

[adamfernadam]

Thanks for that buzby i wish i had your faith that this isnt as bad as im thinking!

 

In refrence to your post yes i wasnt taxed on it as a benefit in kind perk. I have also checked my credit file with experian tonight and there is nothing from Yes Telecom anywhere on it from over the last 6 years or whatever it covers.

 

As for anybody else who works there i cant remember any except for one who now lives abroad i think and iv never spoke to here since we left the company. I have however done some digging through Companies House and have found the info on the company going into liquidation. Its shown as a voluntary liquidation through a practitioner based in Leeds with a wind up date and the date of practitioner appointed as 30/9/2005. This would be right as the only started in Jan 05 and were in liquidation by Sept 05 i remember.

 

Buzby im going to just write out some info that may or may not help your advice to me im unsure...

Looking through the copies of the emails from between Yes Telecom and Advantis Credit that i got sent it, shows that on 28th July there was a manual card payment made to Yes but they cannot see who made it (i.e me personally or the company), 3rd August says i called Yes and confirmed my bank details which i never actually gave them they got from bosses payroll details, November says i called as the phone was not working, 12th Dec says i sent faulty handset back to Yes directly and i was informed by them i should have given it to thier Business partner i.e Wearcom, my employer. New phone was sent to Business partner (my employer) 13th Jan It was noted the email adress they had been given for me was actually my work one and so they realised i may just have been an employee of the business partner and that the business partner conrtact had since been terminated.

"The Business Partner was terminated from association with us. This is normally due to bad practice, but if Fern was indeed an old employee of that company it certainly adda another angle to this. Fern certainly knows the ins an outs and the right things to say it seems"

 

So whats the next step? do i write another letter stating that i reject i ever entered into a contract and im not responsible for the Business Partners business deals etc..(even though they say they can sucessfully argue that as the service was used and contact was made with me then implied contractual agreement can be argued? ) Anything else i need to say?

 

Thanks for continued help

 

Fern

[adamfernadam]

anyone?

[buzby]

They can assert a connection - i but t's a big risk for them, especially if you tell them you would present a 'vigorous defence' of this should it ever come to court.

 

Explain you have wasted enough time on this, they are fully aware of your rejection and if they continue to attempt to pursue you for the debt of your employer you will counter sue to protect you interests.

 

In the meantime, you consider the matter closed, and request that they cease their inappropriate pursuit forthwith.

[adamfernadam]

Hi buzby, and everyone else who has helped so far..an update..and sorry for the long post as it contains 2 letters!

 

Following your advice the last letter i sent was as follows:

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

I write in response to your letter dated 27th February 2009. This letter stated that my account had been put on hold for 8 weeks while a conclusion to the matter was made. It clearly shows from this letter that aswell as continually not supplying correct true documentation, you also show quite openly that you are chasing the wrong person for any monies said to be owed.

 

You have previously not provided me with, and still not to this day provided me with, a true signed copy of an agreement. You state that your photocopied false e-contract and some contact between myself and Yes Telecom Limited will imply a contract for usage of service was in place. This however is not a true agreement and therefore cannot be argued in a court of law.

 

I would like to make some serious points to the photocopied documents that you have sent me, that you believe support that this account was agreed:

 

Copy of Connection Schedule - Within this form illegal fraud has been committed. The signature you refer to as My signature is in fact a fraudulent signature. It is nothing like my own, and this may be seen when compared to the hundreds of things I sign on a daily basis during working hours. There is also no dates, and the address wrote on it again is not mine. This therefore cannot be used in a court of law.

Copy of Customer Agreement - There is again no signatures or dates on this photocopy. The address is not mine again and also it states I have lived there for 3 years, when again I never lived there at all. This therefore cannot be used in a court of law.

Copy of Connection Schedule 2 - There is no signature, dates or positions in the customer declaration box on the form. The invoice address is also blank.

Audit Trail - Status on the account is 'closed' and as there is no dates shown, this is taken to be from at some point after I had left the company. The IP address of 83.67.8.202 is that of Wearcom Limited. The audit trail shows them being added to Yes Telecom as a customer and then their credit being checked. This same IP address is then shown to create schedules, add handsets and submit contracts. This alone shows that it was the manager of Wearcom dealing with Yes Telecom, and not me as an employee.

Copies of emails between Yourselves and Yes Telecom - A manual card payment was taken but is not shown to be mine. It states that when me, as an employee, had a faulty handset that I sent it directly to Yes. It shows them telling me that I should have given it to their Business Partner Wearcom as i was just an employee. A replacement phone was then sent to their Business Partner Wearcom. This again shows that it was the companies phone, and any monies owed lies with them.

 

It is also stated in the details on the emails that I was indeed just an employee and that in their words and i quote "then it adds another angle to this". The angle is that it is clear i do not owe anything and it is realised my old employer is responsible for any debt.

 

The Business Partner WearCom was terminated from Yes due to bad practice. I can tell you that this was due to them going into liquidation. The companies registered number was 05347867 and they are shown to be dissolved. They have a wind up date of 30/09/2005. The liquidators address is shown to be Gary E Blackburn, BWC Business Solutions, 8 Park Place, Leeds, LS1 2RU. You may use this information to chase up whoever is responsible for any monies you say are owed to you. As an old employee i'm sure you can see it is not my responsibility.

 

I am sure you can also see that enough time has been wasted on this, you are now again fully aware of my rejection of responsibility, and if you continue to pursue me for a debt of an old employer then I will counter sue to protect my interests. If the matter ever happened to come to a court of law i wish you to be aware that I will present a vigorous defence. In the meantime I consider the matter closed and i request that you cease your inappropriate pursuit forthwith, and require confirmation of this in writing.

 

You have now been fully reported to the FOS, the CSA and Trading Standards.

 

Yours Sincerely...

 

Now a month later i have recieved a reply which is as follows (sorry no scanner) :

 

I write in response to your letter dated 30th Mach 2009 regarding your queries about the debt passed to Advantis Credit Ltd for collection by YES telecom Ltd.

 

Please find a copy of the e-contract and a copy of the agreement enclosed.

 

You have now been provided with copies of all agreements and a copy of the electronic contract taken out on the 22/06/2005. As we have queried this account extensively with our client on your behalf, we are satisfied. In light of this information, we therefor feel yor dispute is invalid and we will continue to contact you regarding this debt until our client instructs otherwise.

 

Please call us on.... where our team of specialist account managers are waiting to discuss the repayment of this debt.

 

yours sincerely..

 

So now im really confused as to what to do next. This letter has no timeframes or mention of court etc. The cpys they have sent me this time is a colour printout of the same customer agreement iv wrote about in previous posts, and also a colour printout of the same connection schedule. The forms that i mentioned in my letter to them that contained my fraudulant illegal signatures and writing have not been sent to me this time.

 

any help? Im so sick of this now im half beginning to wish id just paid up in the 1st place to get them off my back even though im still convinced it isnt my problem. maybe im worng and if so what would i do about paying it? I cant afford to shell out for what theyre asking, especially when im sure i shouldnt have to pay anything at all!

 

Thanks for your help, i look forward to more advice,

 

Fern x

 

By the way if its of any relevance this last leter they sent was actually sent by somebody not just a scanned signature, some lady whos title is Complaints Administrator, Advantis Credit

[adamfernadam]

anybody?

[adamfernadam]

Sorry to bump my thred again, im just stuck as to what anybody thinks i should do next?