RBS, defaults, DCA's and SAR - answers please?

[spaspeckerthedull]

UPDATE:

 

received reply today from RBS, after sending response to their "solicitor" threat-o-gram, and I'm sure I've posted this same response before but I just can't find it? so please bear with me:

 

Todays RBS response to my CCA was:

"When responding to requests made under section 77, the bank may provide you with a "true copy" of your agreement in accordance with regulation 3(1) of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983. This means that under section 77 there is no obligation for the bank to provide you with a copy of the original agreement bearing your signature. A "true copy" does not need to contain any personal information relating to you as the debtor nor does it need to include a signature box, any signatures or dates of signatures.

 

I trust this explains the banks obligations under section 77 and is of assistance to you"

 

Can this really be true? does this mean they can just send me a piece of paper saying "you owe us money so pay up" and then collect on it?

 

Also, I have already sent the usual "this account is in dispute, do not pass on to DCA, do not process my data under section 21" etc but it's made little difference as they have passed it to moorcroft and "I should now be making arrangements to pay them" On a seperate note, they haven't actually sent me a default notice so can they do this?

 

I'm now HUGELY confused and need some advice??

[citizenB]

This is being discussed on the Consumer Credit Agreements thread.

 

Yes, what they say is correct the criteria for satisfying the CCA1974 does allow for certain items to be omitted. However, should they want take action through the court they WOULD have to supply an original copy with all the bells and whistles.

 

All you can do with Moorcroft I think is when they make contact, advise them the account is in dispute and request they pass it back to the OC.

[Sparkie1723]

I do not remember where this bit of info is but Paul Walton finally got the OFT to say this .....a "true copy" must contain

1.The name of the person

2.Their address.

3.A signature box

But it does not have to contain any signatures.

 

Search Pauls thread or....... better still PM him he will confirm what the OFT have told him sometime this year.

 

sparkie

[spaspeckerthedull]

I do not remember where this bit of info is but Paul Walton finally got the OFT to say this .....a "true copy" must contain

1.The name of the person

2.Their address.

3.A signature box

But it does not have to contain any signatures.

 

Search Pauls thread or....... better still PM him he will confirm what the OFT have told him sometime this year.

 

sparkie

 

oh dear does this mean they have an agreement then? or does the information regarding no signature no agreement and going to court etc still apply?

[Sparkie1723]

What it means that in order to comply with a CCA request that is what they need to supply....to obtain enforcement in court under section 65 they would have to produce a copy of the original with "Your signature " on it.

 

sparkie

[shakespeare62]

Not only that, but the original agreement must also be in the correct format, legible , with all the prescribed terms (total credit, APR, repayment method etc) contained within the four corners of the agreement.

 

This is especially important if the agreement was made before April 2007.

 

If a creditor has the original agreement which is enforceable - they should be happy to send you a copy of it (Which you'll need to examine closely - e.g. put up on the forums - with your ID removed etc. for comments and help).

 

If they send you a reconstructed version.. it could indicate they've destroyed the original. This means that if ther're put to strict proof in Court that an orignal exists they may not be able to comply.

[spaspeckerthedull]

I sent the RBS a SAR in june last year, after the usual delaying tactics and to-ing and fro-ing regarding what they sent me, I sent them the "I've now had enough of this send me my stuff or it's court time, and BTW this is now an official complaint"

 

I'm confused at what they've replied with, the most recent letter is posted here:

 

Thank you for your patience whilst we have been investigating your recent complaint. I understand that you have concerns about the information supplied by CMS on 16 june 2008 in relation to your DSAR

 

You stated the following:

• we failed to provide a complete list of transactions and charges
  
• we have provided no notes or documents relating to any legal action between the bank and yourself
  
• we have provided no notes or documents relating to instances of manual intervention
  
• we have failed to provide any of the requested information prior to 2001
  

with regard to a list of transactions and charges, i have ordered bank statements and will send them out as soon as possible. These would not normally be provided as a matter of course to a customer requesting a DSAR.

 

Having carried out a review of the DSAR provided to you by CMS I regret that I cannot see that any personal details have been omitted that you are entitled to under the DSAR.

 

Please note that the banks retention policy means that historical information beyond 6 years may no longer be available. In your case CMS has complied by providing notes from january 2001 but none are available before this date. Please note that automated letters are system generated and originals are not available.

 

Nevertheless it is apparent that you require specific information. In view of this I would be happy to undertake a further review/search if you provide the specific details of the documents that you require.

 

I trust the above clarifies the matter etc etc

then there's the usual guff about how to complain to us, you have the right to refer to the FOS blah blah.

 

My question is - what exactly do they have to provide? is the 6 years explanation correct and if so what are the chances of reclaiming the substantial amount in charges/PPI before then? Also, if they cannot provide info back past 2001 as they claim not to be able to in this letter, then how were they able to reconstruct a credit application (with only some correct information) in answer to a CCA request? Or is it another dodge in the fact that my account has only been with CMS since january 2001 so they have complied as regards the info held by CMS as they actually can't go beyond 2001 with this particular department?

 

I am much confused

[BankFodder]

They have to provide everything which they have in their possession unless you have asked only for some limited information.

 

If it is true that they no longer have your data prior to 6 years then you would be entitled to a certificate of destruction.

You should ask them for information about what data they do and do not have, when it was destroyed, why, according to what policy, the date of the policy.

 

The banks are thoroughly dishonest and I can well imagine that many banks are getting rid of data older than 6 years in order to frustrate repayments when the OFT case is finally lost by them.

 

I think that you shold get very serious with them. I don't know why yo have waited this long before starting to get on to their case.

I certainly think that you should be making an immediate complaint to the IC about this.

 

I think that information on their policy of destroying data older than 6 years must be obtained and verified.

 

Personally I don't believe it.

 

I know for a fact that Abbey retain all of their account data going back as fas as 1926 and I can scarcely imagine that they are especially out of step with the rest of the industry.

[spaspeckerthedull]

it's not that I've waited a long time, it's taken me this long to get this information out of them - this is the letter that I sent them and it's blatantly obvious (to me) that they haven't complied :

 

I understand that you currently hold details of my personal and financial information within your internal record systems with regard to current accounts, personal loan accounts and/or credit cards.

 

 

Please supply me with a complete list of all transactions and charges relating to my entire history with your organisation, INCLUDING loans and/or credit cards, payment protection insurance and other products. Alternatively a complete set of statements for the accounts or associated accounts is acceptable. I would be grateful if you would provide the following for ALL accounts or associated accounts I have held with your organisation:

 

 

Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same

 

A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to ALL of my Loan Accounts and or credit cards with your organisation.

 

Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contacts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.

 

Full copies or transcripts of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organisation or third party which contains my personal or financial information, or which pertains to me.

 

Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

 

Full hard copy printouts of my personal or financial information, held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations. I will not accept the excuse that historic entries are stored on microfiche. If this statement is made I shall make a full formal complaint to the Information Commissioner.

 

where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 calendar days in which to comply. If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

IF YOU UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS REQUEST, YOU SHOULD IMMEDIATELY FORWARD IT TO THE PERSON WITHIN YOUR ORGANISATION RESPONSIBLE FOR DATA PROTECTION

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you in the first instance of receipt

 

as you can see, I already asked for evidence of any disposal. I know their methods are designed to make you just give up, and that's exactly what I feel like doing

Edited March 1, 2009 by spaspeckerthedull
spelling

[davey77]

Have you sent a complaint to the ICO about this at any time?

[spaspeckerthedull]

no, I was thinking about it but I've got to the point now where I'm asking myself is it really worth it? it doesn't matter how much we here on CAG take the moral high ground and send off correctly constructed and very cleverly worded letters knowing full well the law thanks to the tireless efforts of dedicated CAGgers who pull the legislation to bits and explain it all in plain english, just to have banks and DCA's carry on regardless as they know full well they will never, ever be brought to task over their actions

[davey77]

It's hard not to give up i know when presented with a brick wall at every turn it seems. But it only seems that way and creditors who are so desperate to avoid their duties and who lack common decency, in the end, won't win. Less often than not.

 

For a little inspiration i would check out the successes threads. That's what i do when it looks like i am going round in circles.

[itsamomentintime]

did anything come of this?

[spaspeckerthedull]

letter to ICO going off tomorrow - anything else I can do regarding the information prior to 2001 I know they must have as per my post #1?

[spaspeckerthedull]

please bear with me, I have searched but can't find anything similar.

 

Been to-ing and fro-ing with westcot and their *ahem* "clients" RBS concerning a CCA request sent to them in July last year, got a letter from westcot today -

 

Dear ********* *******

 

Further to your recent correspondence regarding the above account.

 

Our client has requested you write to the following address and state in your covering letter that this is a section 77/78 request and enclose a payment payable to the client of £1:00

 

Now the last letter they got from me was a "bemused" one in january of this year, their response to which was to enter me into the loop of *cough cough* "solicitors" that they use with all the usual we may send the boys round, and we may issue a CCJ etc. The original CCA was sent, with a postal order, in July of last year, to which I got the usual flannel so I put them on default of my request

 

What gives? should I send another CCA?

[dcakiller]

No you have made a valid and lawfull cca request report these clowns to the oft and trading standards for theatening action in default of a cca

[IdaInFife]

no, if you still have the tracking etc then you don't need to.

 

 

if it were me file it

 

ida x

[cerberusalert]

Dear Cretins,

 

Thankyou for your letter of xx xx xx in which you state;

"Our client has requested you write to the following address and state in your covering letter that this is a section 77/78 request and enclose a payment payable to the client of £1:00".

 

May I remind you that If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Therefore I expect you to abide by the requirements of the Act and fullfill your duties, otherwise I will have no alternative but to make a complaint to the relevant regulatory authorities,

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign

[spaspeckerthedull]

Dear Cretins,

 

Thankyou for your letter of xx xx xx in which you state;

"Our client has requested you write to the following address and state in your covering letter that this is a section 77/78 request and enclose a payment payable to the client of £1:00".

 

May I remind you that If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Therefore I expect you to abide by the requirements of the Act and fullfill your duties, otherwise I will have no alternative but to make a complaint to the relevant regulatory authorities,

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign

 

thanks for the input guys - I especially like the "Dear Cretins" bit, but they've already had all the appropriate responses including the above letter, I was just wondering why they are actually requesting me to send another CCA request?

 

it seems rather odd ....................

[andie_303]

they are trying to pass the buck - send what cerebrus posted for you - they are playing a game - you just have to play it better

[spaspeckerthedull]

UPDATE:

 

they've now sent the usual threatening doorstep collection, I've responded with the "I revoke license/armstrong" letter adding that anyone they send will subject to a citizens arrest for breach of above/harassment, and that I will also call the police as I feel threatened etc. - but I don't think it'll be enough?

 

anyone got anything to add?

[lickthewallfatboy]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the doorstep visit

 

[dcakiller]

I would send them this

 

 

I refer to your threat to send an agent to my home. I have previously told you that all communication in this matter must be in writing.

 

It appears to me that your threats are an attempt to apply psychological pressure, which is a breach of the OFT Guidance on

Debt Collection. In addition, behaviour which creates an intimidating or hostile environment constitutes harassment.

 

Should you ignore the above, you should be aware that I will not speak to any caller, save to ask them to leave at once. If they fail to do so, the police will be called. Any call will also be reported to the appropriate enforcement authorities. Resonable force may be used to eject any persons. Take further note that cctv is in use at these premises and may be used as evdince in any complaint

 

If you do not understand this letter, you should seek professional advice.

[spaspeckerthedull]

I would send them this

 

 

I refer to your threat to send an agent to my home. I have previously told you that all communication in this matter must be in writing.

 

It appears to me that your threats are an attempt to apply psychological pressure, which is a breach of the OFT Guidance on

Debt Collection. In addition, behaviour which creates an intimidating or hostile environment constitutes harassment.

 

Should you ignore the above, you should be aware that I will not speak to any caller, save to ask them to leave at once. If they fail to do so, the police will be called. Any call will also be reported to the appropriate enforcement authorities. Resonable force may be used to eject any persons. Take further note that cctv is in use at these premises and may be used as evdince in any complaint

 

If you do not understand this letter, you should seek professional advice.

 

they've already had this - will now just have to wait and see what happens although from what I've read here and about they seem to be able to ignore explicit written instruction with impunity - surely there must be something that can be done apart from reporting them to the *ahem* "regulatory bodies" that are nothing more then toothless tigers?

[dcakiller]

I used to have a sign on my gate with a photo of my 2 collies and the quote "we can make it to the gate in 2 seconds can you?"