Detained by police for unpaid PCN

[Ellie May]

Quick question for you, what do the police have to do with the enforcement of PCn's under decriminalised parking schemes?

 

The reason I ask is that yesterday morning I was stopped by the police on my way to work and detained for almost an hour. They told me this was becasue there was a warrant against my car for an unpaid PCn and forced my to call Drakes / Marsden Group before they would let me leave for work.

 

Only as I was driving away did it occur to me that this wasn't really a police matter, as its not a magistrates court fine and is a civil matter. Or can the police get involved to help Drakes out once it becomes a warrant?

 

I must say I am a bit disturbed that the police are hand in hand with Drakes for PCN fines.

 

Oh yes one final thing, I was stopped because they said that the ANPR flashed up that there was 'something outstanding' on my car. Again, if this is a civil PCN why would the police be informed of this and why would my car be on their database?

[lamma]

You are correct. This is a civil matter and nothing to do with the police. I would have said as much

"This is a civil matter over which you have no authority so I am now going to carry on going about my personal business. If you wish to prevent this you will have to arrest me, what charge would that be ?"

or

"I believe you only have the power to detain me unless you intend to or purport to arrest me. Detaining me otherwise has been found by the High Court to be an assault. As you have not and you have not even brought up any criminal matters I am now going to leave. Do you have anything to say"

or

"Your powers to detain me do not extend to civil matters. If you do not let me go about my lawful business I will take legal action. Do you have anything to say ?".

or simply

"am I suspected of a crime ?"

and when they say no go about your business. I prefer the previous two responses I think.

 

and have a digital voice recorder in the car and running !!

 

 

Police do this a lot now - its even on TV to get us used to accepting that this is allowed, when in fact it is not.

 

The uploading of council PCN info onto ANPR is very worrying, what else do they load ? A clear misuse of data in my view.

As this happened to you I believe you should consider a well worded complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. To give it legs you should follow the steps the Information Commissioners Office recommends.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/dp_how_to_complain_final.pdf

 

Complaints about data protection – Information Commissioner’s Office - Information Commissioners Office

 

Everyone who experiences this should complain thus - it is a scandal and it will carry on until someone bites back - and the Information Commissioners Office has that power.

 

re the 'you are assaulting me by detaining me in this way' response this has been found in the High Court (quoted below). I would mention this to to ICO !

 

Wood v Director of Public Prosecutions [2008] EWHC 1056 (Admin) (14 May 2008)

 

 

"It seems to me that the inexorable logic of this passage is that where a police officer restrains a person, but does not at that time intend or purport to arrest him, then he is committing an assault, even if an arrest would have been justified. In the present case, Sergeant Cannon did not intend or purport to arrest the appellant when he restrained him and at no stage in the course of the fracas which resulted, did he assert that he was arresting the appellant. If he had done so or either of the constables had done so, before the appellant struggled in order to obtain his release, the position would be different. But the facts found do not support such a conclusion. It follows that the appeal is allowed, and the convictions must be quashed.

 

 

Mr Justice Underhill"

 

Each and every time the police do this they are guilty of assault in my view

Edited May 23, 2008 by lamma

[emsgeorge]

This is interesting - I didn't know that the TEC had powers to add markers to PNC. (or is it just something someone has decided to do...)

 

Would be interesting for someone to ask a freedom of info question to them, to see if this is a new thing.

[Ellie May]

Lamma, thank you bery much indeed. That is as I suspected but I had no real idea of the details to back up my suspicions. I will indeed be making a complaint as the police were also very agressive towards me and confiscated my car cars. I think I am going to go down the assult line on this.

 

And yes it is indeed very worrying that PCN's are on ANPRs. I will be investigating this too.

 

Thanks guys.

[lamma]

if you want your assault charge to stick (make it hard for them to wriggle out) use a solicitor.

 

Follow the Information Commissioners Office route I linked to earlier for the ANPR. Not only is it misuse of data they are doing it in furtherance of committing a crime ! many crimes when you add up how often this goes on up and down the country.

[Rob S]

It's getting very disturbing that the police are becoming more involved with regards to these outstanding PCN payments that have gone through the TEC. I would be asking the following questions:-

 

What did the ANPR flag up when your car passed through it?

 

Has any form of police report been added to the vehicle record relating to the unpaid PCN?

 

If so, what police force added it and on whose authority?

 

What statutory powers did the police use to detain you at the scene in relation to the unpaid PCN?

 

They will no doubt say they used their powers under section 163 ( I think) of the Road Traffic Act to stop you, but it's the power to detain you subsequently that is of concern here.

[lamma]

yup - they could always give the vehicle a thorough once over to detain you ( falsely in my view). but that would eat up their time and their thoughput would vanish.

 

Can a bailiff expert comment on the 'just drive away from the bailiffs 'option. You may need a second set of car keys if the police have (illegally) seized yours....which you then reclaim as part of your complaint about the police.

 

this really does have to be stopped.

 

there is much stuff out there about ANPR - suggest interested people start here

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/anpr_strat_2005-08_march05_12x04x05.doc

 

www.paconsulting.com/NR/rdonlyres/7C16BC3A-068B-4FA5-96A5-92D95AA023FA/0/ANPRBrochure.pdf

 

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/finance-and-business-planning/tradeshow-presentations/Delivering_Efficiency_ANPR.pdf?view=Binary

 

try and find anything about deployment for civil use (i.e as a private police force)... who pays the costs of these TEC related ANPR deployments ? is it overtime with ALL costs funded by the TEC/bailiffs/councils. or is it misuse of police time..

 

lots of avenues to open up..

 

some info about the software

(QRO) Solutions (News)

 

nice conference in June this year. I wonder if the public can attend ?

 

according to the published ANPR data model there is a "Hot Listed Vehicle Stop Reason". I wonder that the reason is for these TEC stops ?

Also after every ANPR stop the police operator is supposed to file the 'result of stop'. As far as I can see these are predefined and relate to actual police business (HORT, FPN etc). I wonder what they file for TEC stops ? or if they file anything at all ? ?

More food for thought - and more for the ICO to go on.

Edited May 23, 2008 by lamma

[Rob S]

Another avenue which may be worth exploring is to contact the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO, sometimes known as the Association of Conniving Political Opportunists:D) and ask them if they have issued any policies or guidance with regards to police assisitng bailiffs in respect of warrnats that have been issued for civil matters.

[lamma]

ACPO do have the docs I linked to before.

all the published stuff I have seen is related to criminal activity - by the drivers, not by the police in detaining people unlawfully !

 

It could be waste of time expecting a straight answer I suspect

[PPC Buster]

Ellie, was this Greater Manchester Police? They seem to have a sweetheart deal going with Drakes.

[Ellie May]

Ellie, was this Greater Manchester Police? They seem to have a sweetheart deal going with Drakes.

 

Guess what? Yes it was. What do you mean a 'sweetheart deal'?

[Conniff]

It means that they probably contribute to the policemans ball.

[Ellie May]

It means that they probably contribute to the policemans ball.

 

:D:D:D

[green_and_mean]

Most PCNs state that the informatiom on them will be shared with other organiations such as the Police.

The Police record all kinds of information and profiles on the PNC which is then used in conjunction with ANPR.

Whilst the Police cannot detain you in order for balliffs to carry out their duties they can use it as an excuse (not that they need one) to stop and check your vehicle. The theory is people that those that don't pay PCNs or have road tax etc are more likely to be involved in other 'criminal' activities.

[Ellie May]

Hmmmm. Does this mean they were in their rights to do what they did? Or does it depend on what the PCN in question said?

[patdavies]

Hmmmm. Does this mean they were in their rights to do what they did? Or does it depend on what the PCN in question said?

 

They are most definitely within their right to stop any vehicle at any time on the public highway.

 

That bailiffs then take over is probably an abuse of Police powers.

[green_and_mean]

Hmmmm. Does this mean they were in their rights to do what they did? Or does it depend on what the PCN in question said?

 

I cannot see justification in detaining anyone for an hour but random stop checks on vehicles with outstanding PCNs are perfectly legal. It could for example be a vehicle that has not been registered with the new owner or even cloned.

The Police use all kinds of 'big brother' tactics these days most vehicles are tracked and recorded by ANPR every day if in large towns or on major routes. Just as all emails and mobile calls go through GCHQ and filtered, vehicle movements are tracked using the Police National ANPR system and all Police forces have access to any records of your car movements under the guise of terror prevention.

[lamma]

I would refer to post #2

 

""It seems to me that the inexorable logic of this passage is that where a police officer restrains a person, but does not at that time intend or purport to arrest him, then he is committing an assault,"

[Rob S]

I cannot see justification in detaining anyone for an hour but random stop checks on vehicles with outstanding PCNs are perfectly legal..

 

How can it be a random stop check if there is information relating to unpaid PCN's? And what power will the police be using to stop a vehicle specifically in relation to outstanding civil debts, and not in realtion to the statutory powers unde the Road Traffic Act?

 

Whilst police can stop vehicles using their powers under the road traffic act just for the purposes of establishing if the driver has a driving licence, there is a policy of insurance which covers the driver to drive the vehicle and to establish if the vehicle has a current MOT certificate (if over 3 years old), I very much doubt that they have a power to stop a vehicle purely because it shows up that there are outstanding civil debts

[green_and_mean]

I very much doubt that they have a power to stop a vehicle purely because it shows up that there are outstanding civil debts

 

They have the power to stop anyone if they feel like it. Outstanding parking tickets may be civil concerns but they are also possible indicators to other criminal situations such as failing to notify of change of address or owner.

[Zamzara]

They have the power to stop anyone if they feel like it.

 

It is an offence to fail to stop. This is not quite the same as the police having the power to stop anyone without consequences.

 

If an officer stops a female driver so he can ask for her phone number, it is still an offence for her to fail to stop. That doesn't mean the officer's unacceptable reasons cannot be investigated.

[Rob S]

They have the power to stop anyone if they feel like it. Outstanding parking tickets may be civil concerns but they are also possible indicators to other criminal situations such as failing to notify of change of address or owner.

 

 

It comes back to what should the PNC be used for. It is a tool for the police to be able to place information reports on relating to criminal activity involving the use of vehicles. It should not be used solely for the purpose of placing reports on relating to unpaid PCN's.

[gwc1000]

they are also possible indicators to other criminal situations such as failing to notify of change of address

 

It is not a criminal offence to fail to change your address on a V5. The address shown on a V5 must be an address where you may be contacted. It does not have to be your home address.

[green_and_mean]

It is not a criminal offence to fail to change your address on a V5. The address shown on a V5 must be an address where you may be contacted. It does not have to be your home address.

 

I never said it had to be your home but failing to notify DVLA of a change of address is an offence.

[gwc1000]

But my point is it is perfectly legal for a RK to go through as many address changes as he desires whilst the address on the V5 never changes.