Raising a grievance...help needed please...

[little_evo]

Hello, I'm sorry I dont have much time to go into all the details, I can give more information later when I have time, but yesterday afternoon my husband was given a letter to request a disciplinary hearing on Wednesday. He went in and had a word with the one requesting it and she said she will get i touch with him tomorrow to see if she will still have the meeting. They have him down for sick absences he was at work!

 

So anyways, she didn't bother to seek him out today and his supervisor went into the office to enquire for my husband to see if it was still on and they said yes. So my husband went in and said he needed to postpone until next week to gather paperwork and also to speak to his union rep. The manager just called him on his mobile practically yelling that he will attend the meeting tomorrow and also be postponed until next Monday. That doesn't make sense does it??? Can they do this??

 

Im sorry if I sound a bit panicky but our little boy isnt well today and might possibly have to go to hospital for some tests, depending on what the gp says this afternoon.

 

Thank you in advance for all of your help!!!

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, 2 days notice for a disciplinary meeting is unreasonable - had anyone spoken to your husband about absence before he got the letter?

 

He is perfectly within his rights to request the meeting is postponed for up to 5 days to allow him to consult with his union rep and ensure the rep is able to accompany him.

 

Your husband should put his request in writing and hand it in tomorrow morning.

 

The treatment your husband has received from his manager is totally unacceptable and he should report him.

 

Please let us know what happens.

 

Kind Regards

 

Ell-enn

[little_evo]

Hi Ell-enn,

Thanks so much for the reply, here is the story as of yet. Last year i (the husband) received a hearing in October 07 for absenteeism. I was informed that i would hear of the outcome shortly after..and i waited...i even enquired. I received a letter post dated 28th November 07 on the 7th JANUARY this year, saying i had a verbal warning which would remain for 6 months and that i would have a further review on 27th Feb 08, again i waited and nothing. I had last week off sick (certified by both GP and local NHS hosptial) saying i was unfit for work, i went to work on monday and i had a letter informing me of a disciplinary hearing about my asbsence once again. If it was certified can they do this? Also on one occasion they have me down for a sick day, but was infact in work, and they have booked this day as a "holiday" day for which i have taken, but i did neither as i have records showing i was in work on said day. I have cancelled my meeting tomorrow until monday, but my manager INSISTS i have a meeting tomorrow to have a "Chat" and then resume on monday. I am at my wits end with this and feel this is totally unjustified...what can i do?

Thanks once again

[cal37]

Hi Ell-enn,

Thanks so much for the reply, here is the story as of yet. Last year i (the husband) received a hearing in October 07 for absenteeism. I was informed that i would hear of the outcome shortly after..and i waited...i even enquired. I received a letter post dated 28th November 07 on the 7th JANUARY this year, saying i had a verbal warning which would remain for 6 months and that i would have a further review on 27th Feb 08, again i waited and nothing. I had last week off sick (certified by both GP and local NHS hosptial) saying i was unfit for work, i went to work on monday and i had a letter informing me of a disciplinary hearing about my asbsence once again. If it was certified can they do this? Also on one occasion they have me down for a sick day, but was infact in work, and they have booked this day as a "holiday" day for which i have taken, but i did neither as i have records showing i was in work on said day. I have cancelled my meeting tomorrow until monday, but my manager INSISTS i have a meeting tomorrow to have a "Chat" and then resume on monday. I am at my wits end with this and feel this is totally unjustified...what can i do?

Thanks once again

 

 

Yes they can make you attend a meeting about your sickness even if its certified, a sick note is only an explanation to why you are off and not a ticket to have time off.

 

As Ell-ann has said you are well within your rights to postpone the meeting, however as you manager is insisting you attend a meeting tomorrow, I’d say go to it BUT refuse to answer any questions or even speak at all. ONLY say that this meeting should not be taking place without your union rep and you will be taking the matter up via the grievance procedures.

[little_evo]

Hi again Thanks for the reply, i have a question though, if the note says i am sick and unfit for work, surely i am not going to go to work and jeopodize the health and safety of my work collegues. because if i went to work and caused an accident who will be liable?

Me or the company?

[Lula]

Hi there, if you have an illness and it is certified by the Doctor you are not allowed to attend work, they know this.

[cal37]

Hi there, if you have an illness and it is certified by the Doctor you are not allowed to attend work, they know this.

 

True because of health and safety. Mind an employer can insist you do other work that you are capable of. Now let’s say you’re an HGV driver with a broken leg, you can not possibly drive your truck BUT you could come in and work in the office sorting out deliveries.

One of the first things taught me was that a sick note is not a defence against being dismissed for taking too much time off. It is dangerous to presume that if you have a sick note a company can not dismiss you.

[little_evo]

Thanks for the post, but if my illness interfered with my work surely it is not reasonable to expect one to go to work. Which is why i was certified by both GP and NHS doctor. The reason for the post was to understand if they can call such a meeting and justify it even though i was unfit for work and if i had of attended i would have jeopodized the H&S of my collegues. Which is why i am confused as to why i have such a meeting as they know if i did go to work an accident could have happened.

Thanks to all once again for hellping me understand a little more

[little_evo]

Thanks cal for your posts and help greatly appreciated , but i was only off for 1 week and not months off at a time, for which i would understand if i was to attend such a meeting

[cal37]

I fully agree with what you said. However all I can say is that an Employer can in fact still dismiss an employee for sickness even with a sick note. Now the company will have to show that you are sick persistently and that they have tried to work with you to help with your sickness level etc.

 

However if they have done all this etc then a sick note is not guaranteed stop you from being dismissed.

[cal37]

Thanks cal for your posts and help greatly appreciated , but i was only off for 1 week and not months off at a time, for which i would understand if i was to attend such a meeting

 

 

Your welcome, now in this meeting, find out if it’s an informal chat or if it’s on record. If it’s informal they can insist you attend but as I said before just say you will not comment without your union rep being present. Stick to that, do not let them intimated you.

If they say its formal then ring your union and ask them to call your employer and remind them of your rights under the law and have it postponed.

[68904]

I worked for a big railway company, and they were bully boys and liars to boot,

The TUC guidelines cover how you can be diciplined, and show suggested guidelines for this process.

The company had a policy of 3 instances of sickness over rolling 12 month period.

If you were off sick, when you resumed your line manager interviewed you on return.

If you have too much sickness you can in effect repudiate your contract of employment and get the sack.

" In cases like this, never go to any interview without someone with you, as soon as you think the interview is going towards dicipline you ask to be accopanied by a friend or union rep. If they refuse your request, get up and leave."

The TUC Guidlines say you can be accompanied by a fellow worker, a Union Rep, or a person passed out in dicplinary proceedures.

If they fail the employer can be taken to an industrial tribunal.

The TUC Guidlines are accepted as a model for best practise in these cases.

The choice of person to accompany you is yours to make.

I will research the TUC site and send a link today.

I was a Union Rep and Safety Representative for the RMT Union for over 15 years, but now retired.

68904

[little_evo]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your posts, i would like to update those who have contributed to the thread...

When i originally posted i was unsure as which path to take, however yesterday i asked my manager if i could postbone the meeting as insufficient time was given to me and that some of the facts they included for the discipline were rather vague and misleading. I was told in no uncertain terms that "I would attend the meeting today at 12:30pm for a chat and we could carry on with the meeting on monday", i agreed. However unbeknown to me at the time, my child was sick at home and was admitted to hospital yesterday evening. I went to work this morning with verification stating that my boy was in hospital and needed to see a consultant at 9am this morning. I kindly asked my manager if i could leave at a suitable time so i too could see what was going on...My manager was not pleased to say the least, i did let her know i would make up any lost time over the next day or 2 to rectify the situation of me leaving early, but i think this was not good enough, and then persisted on to ask personal questions as to why my wife could not go to hospital etc. I simply left the room and said no more. I Know i am not "flavour" of the month because of the situation but i feel like i am seriously being singled out and i think this is not fair.

Thanks once again to all who have posted and i will try to keep everyone informed!

[bed32]

Don't forget to write everything down.

 

You should make sure you have contemporary notes of every discussion with the boss. That can be very important when you are trying to show that you are being singled out.

 

You have the right to take time off work (not necessarily paid) in order to look after a sick child (or more precisely to arrange for a sick child to be looked after).

 

If your manager objects to that, or criticises you for doing so, then make a note of it. It will then be very hard for him to take any action against you because of your attendance.

[little_evo]

Hi bed32,

Thanks once again for the post, i am trying real hard to do things amicably but sadly my manager does not seem to comprehend the fact that my boy was sick and i feel she thinks it was just "Convinient" that it happened as it did so i would not go to the meeting today, i have even (as i have before) made up more than my time of lost hours by going into work at "silly o' clock", but this is not acceptable in her eyes, and a day off is a day off regardless of whatever reason it is.

[bed32]

She is clearly not being reasonable. The risk is she might at any point decide "enough is enough" and try to get you out. If that happens the best hope you have of keeping your job (or at that worst getting compensation for unfair dismissal) is to be able to demonstrate that it is your manager who is being unreasonable, not yourself. In order to do that it helps to have a record of her actions

[adamski]

True because of health and safety. Mind an employer can insist you do other work that you are capable of. Now let’s say you’re an HGV driver with a broken leg, you can not possibly drive your truck BUT you could come in and work in the office sorting out deliveries.

 

Sorry if i am wrong but i thought that if you had an injury and had a sick note you cannot work not just because of health and safety but also for insurance purposes if you make the injury worse even by doing paperwork i.e you trip down stairs, slip or fall while at work you are not insured under any company insurance.

 

I was off work with a burn to my hand for 2 weeks, after the firts week i was so bored i begged to come into work and do computer work only to be told i would not be covered under the company insurance

[little_evo]

Hi all, thanks for the many posts, just a real quick update to let everyone know what kind of happened, i would like your views and assistance...

Well i had my disciplinary which in turn i received a verbal warning for my absence, of which i am confused...

Policy states that if you have 3 seperate occasions or 10 days off sick (whichever comes 1st) one would attend a hearing. I have only had 1 day off sick since november, and a week certified by both GP and hospital, totalling 6 days or 2 periods of absence, since my last verbal warning, which again was comical and another story!!!

I argued my point and i think my manager was not pleased, as i questioned company policy and the ethics of which they impose it and the fact that it does not seem to be dealt evenly across the board of employees. Also for the time i was off i did not get the SSP i was entitled to, which again needs raising at some point. I am told i can appeal the decision to the big manager, but they are the hirer and firer of the company and i know that sooner or later i will be pushed out of a job i have enjoyed for nearly 6 years!

I am in a situation where i find myself wanting to appeal the decision as 1. i do not understand why i have received it if they have not complied with their own complany policies and 2. But if i do, risk loosing a good(ish) job with people i like for the sake of trying to take them on. OR Just accept the warning keep my head down (as i always do) and just get on with things like nothing has happened and not have anymore days off in the forthcoming 6 months!

 

Again thanks to all for your help and advice

[68904]

A verbal warning is the lowest punishment that they can hand out, other than letting you off.

If you want to appeal, the higher manger can only reduce the verdict and not increase it.

During my years on the railway I've been sacked then reinstated, have had written warnings and I still retired after 28 years.

If you appeal the manger will either uphold the verdict or reduce it.

The warning will stay on your record for perhaps 6 months, then taken off.

If the warning stays, go to work, always be on time and dont make waves unless you have to.

That doent mean you let them walk all over you.

Eveyday keep a secret log of things that bosses say to you, if you think that you are been set up by them.

Have a look at this link

Trades Union Congress - Know your rights - you're not alone

This is the ACAS Code of conduct for diciplinary hearings.

Disciplinary procedures

 

Disciplinary procedures can help encourage employees to achieve and maintain standards of behaviour and performance. They can also help to ensure that disciplinary offences are dealt with fairly and consistently.

Why are disciplinary rules helpful?

Clear rules benefit both employers and employees; they set standards of conduct at work and make clear to employees what is expected of them. Employees will more readily accept rules if care is taken to explain why they are necessary. Rules should cover such matters as:

• conduct
  
• timekeeping
  
• absence
  
• health and safety
  
• use of company telephones, and other equipment
  
• discrimination on the grounds of age, race, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or religion or belief
  
• performance and behaviour.

The rules should also specify the kind of offences that will be regarded as gross misconduct and which will normally lead to dismissal without notice. Serious offences such as physical violence, theft or fraud are normally so regarded, but the nature of the business or other circumstances may determine other offences which might also be included.

Disciplinary procedures

The Code of Practice - Disciplinary and grievance procedures [327kb] recommends that disciplinary procedures should:

• be put in writing;
  
• say to whom they apply
  
• be non-discriminatory
  
• allow for matters to be dealt without undue delay
  
• allow for information to be kept confidential
  
• tell employees what disciplinary action might be taken
  
• say what levels of management have the authority to take disciplinary action
  
• require employees to be informed of the complaints against them and supporting evidence, before a meeting
  
• give employees a chance to have their say before management reaches a decision
  
• provide employees with the right to be accompanied
  
• provide that no employee is dismissed for a first breach of discipline, except in cases of gross misconduct
  
• require management to investigate fully before any disciplinary action is taken
  
• ensure that employees are given an explanation for any sanction and
  
• allow employees to appeal against a decision.

In addition, disciplinary procedures should:

• apply to all employees, irrespective of their length of service

• be non-discriminatory and applied irrespective of age, sex, marital status, race, sexual orientation, religion or belief, or disability

• ensure that any investigatory period of suspension is with pay and specify how pay is to be calculated during such a period (if, exceptionally, suspension is to be without pay this should be provided for in the contract of employment)

• ensure that, where the facts are in dispute, no disciplinary penalty is imposed until the case has been carefully investigated and it is concluded on the balance of probability that the employee committed the act in question.

Trade union officials

Although normal disciplinary standards should apply to their conduct as employees, disciplinary action against a trade union official can be misconstrued as an attack on the union. Such problems can be avoided by early discussion with a full-time official.

Communicating rules and procedures

An explanation of rules and procedures should be given to all new employees. Every employee should have access to a copy of the company rules and disciplinary procedures. Special attention should be paid to ensure that rules and procedures are understood by young people with little experience of working life and by employees whose English is limited or who have reading difficulties.

Disciplinary penalties

Informal action such as admonishments or counselling should normally precede formal warnings. If an informal approach fails, formal penalties are normally implemented progressively, typically in the following stages:

• first formal warning: misconduct - performance plan
  
• first formal warning: unsatisfactory performance - first written warning
  
• final written warning - for misconduct or performance
  
• dismissal or other sanction.

However, there may be occasions when, depending on the seriousness of the misconduct involved, it will be appropriate to enter the procedure at the stage of a final written warning. Confidential records should be kept of disciplinary action and written warnings. Except in special circumstances any action should be disregarded for disciplinary purposes after a specified period of satisfactory conduct, although it may be appropriate for warnings to remain on record for other purposes. Further advice on the handling of disciplinary matters is contained in the Advisory handbook - Discipline and grievances at work (section 1 of 2).

Appeals

There should be a procedure which allows for appeals against any disciplinary action to be dealt with speedily. Wherever possible the appeal should be heard by an authority higher than that taking the disciplinary action. In small firms there may be no authority higher than the manager who decided the disciplinary action. If this is the case the same person who took the disciplinary action should hear the appeal and act as impartially as possible.

The legal requirements

All employers, regardless of size, are required to follow a minimum three stage statutory procedure for dealing with disciplinary issues, including dismissal and for handling grievances. The three stages comprise the written notification of the problem, the meeting to address the problem and an opportunity to attend an appeal meeting if necessary.

The written statement of main terms and conditions (see Self help guide - Producing a written statement ) must specify any disciplinary rules and to whom employees can apply if they are dissatisfied with a disciplinary decision.

For further information see the Acas Advisory handbook - Discipline and grievances at work (section 1 of 2).

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68904

[little_evo]

Hello again. I have a new question now. I ended up accepting the verbal warning and simply decided to keep my head down and work and yesterday I asked to do overtime at work for this coming Saturday. I was told fine by my gaffer and then about an hour later I was told to see the one who issued the verbal warning against me and she said I was not allowed to do overtime for three months as they want to see if my attendance approves and honestly as far as I am aware this has never ever happened to any other employee in the company. So I was wondering if this was allowed or can I question them on it?

 

I can't get in touch with my union rep until after I'm after work this evening and thought to ask the good people on here for advice. Many thanks once again.

[little_evo]

Good afternoon all, firstly may i thank you for reading this thread.

 

A brief history, a short while ago, i posted a thread with regard to a disciplinary hearing i received, the outcome was i received a verbal warning for 6 months. Although i feel this was unjust i accepted the verbal warning and decided just to get on with my work.

However, this week i had asked my supervisor if i could work a little overtime this weekend, they informed me i could, but i was to see my shift manager, (the one who took and decided on the outcome of the disciplinary hearing), so i did. She informed me that due to my (alleged) poor attendance (2 periods of 6 days (5 of which were certified by my GP and hospital) in 6 months!!) that she was banning me from doing any overtime for 3 months.

 

(She had informed all supervisors 4 days after i had received my letter of verbal warning that if i were to ask for overtime that i should be led to her direction. They all knew but did not tell me, as i have not asked for O/T in 6 or so weeks, but i feel she had set a trap for me)

 

I kindly asked her to review this as i thought this was unfair, but her response was, the decision has been made and she is not willing to change this and in her opinion i should be banned from overtime full stop! I kindly asked her to put this in writing informing me of the ban and the reasons for it, she did not seem too pleased.

 

As this was not stipulated in my letter telling me of the verbal warning, is she entitled to add "punishment" as and when she seems fit? Am i right to feel a bit peeved and file a grievance procedure against her, or do i just shut up and get on with it?

Your thought and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[adamski]

Hi

Was your non attendence 12 days or just 6?

[little_evo]

Hi Adamski,

My attendance was 6 days off sick in 6 months on 2 seperate occasions. One being 5 days certified sick with notes from GP & hospital. The other being 1 sick day on 1 occasion.

[little_evo]

Oh also to note, this ban on O/T has not been given to any other employee at any other time since i started work with the company almost 6 years ago.

[Sidewinder]

First thing to point out is that despite it being a 'verbal' warning, you should still have received written confirmation of any and all sanctions taken against you as a consequence - if an overtime ban was part of the punishment then the letter should say so. Your company disciplinary procedures should also dictate what sanctions are relevant in the event of misdemeanours or breaches of company policy, and also what the company policy is with regard to sickness.

 

On that basis, and assuming that the company policy makes no mention of disciplinary action involving either a ban on overtime or specific action to be taken in the event of two periods of sickness (you are entitled to know how sickness absence is monitored and at what threshold any action is triggered) then you should certainly raise a grievance.

 

No need to be confrontational particularly, but you should write heading the letter 'Formal Grievance' explaining that further to the issue of a warning against you, you were advised that you had been issued with a verbal warning to remain on file for six months, but no mention was made of a ban on overtime, which was neither discussed at the time nor advised to you in writing. Furthermore you can find no mention of this being a sanction made in conjunction with a warning in the company's disciplinary procedures. You are also concerned at the suggestion that this may be a punishment for two short periods of sickness absence and would appreciate written confirmation of exactly why this punishment has been added to your original warning without having been advised at the time. You understand that it would be considered unfair treatment to add extra punishment after a disciplinary hearing and without advising you, or to take what amounts to disciplinary action for sickness absence without the due process which is your legal right. Can they perhaps point you in the direction of the relevant clauses in your Terms and Conditions which relate to this?

 

Not entirely sure what you will achieve - are you entitled to expect a certain amount of overtime? Are others still getting extra hours?