Help Please re: CCA decision

[Misterzeus]

Hello, this is my first post; I’ve read through a fair few threads and found them very informative.

 

I need some advice please.

 

Amex used RMA to deal with my debt and after trying to get at me through my brother and failing; I wrote official complaints to both RMA and Amex regarding their behaviour.

 

To cut a long story short, RMA passed us back to Amex because I just wouldn’t give in to their “telephone us” demands. I wrote to Amex and said that RMA had ignored my contact in writing only request and consequently, as far as I’m concerned my complaint re RMA has not been resolved and Amex has wrote (dated 13th March) and said that my complaint has been escalated and will be investigated further.

Anyway, after around 10 days of silence (from RMA), today I have received a letter from Credit Solutions Limited who have lumped on over £700 as a file referral fee to my Amex debt and want the full amount on return. They state: Please do not simply write as our time limits are strict. In other words – phone us to confirm your payment has been sent. There is a payment slip attached to the letter.

 

My questions are:

• Can Amex pass the debt on to another DCA whilst a complaint is ongoing?

• Am I right in thinking that Amex should inform me before passing the debt on to another DCA?

I’m of the mindset that initially I should write to Amex and complain yet again or should I write a “CCA letter to Credit Solutions Limited”?

Any advice would be much appreciated, thankyou.

[babybear39]

Hi and welcome Misterzeus,

 

It's against OFT guidlines to pass an account whilst there is an ongoing and un-resolved dispute oustanding.

 

They should inform you, but many don't 'cos they know they're not supposed to be passing it anyway

[babybear39]

CCA Amex directly and remind them also of their obligations to resolve your dispute or give you a final answer. If you aren't satidfied, complain to FOS.

[Fred Bassett]

Hello, this is my first post; I’ve read through a fair few threads and found them very informative.

 

I need some advice please.

 

Amex used RMA to deal with my debt and after trying to get at me through my brother and failing; I wrote official complaints to both RMA and Amex regarding their behaviour.

 

To cut a long story short, RMA passed us back to Amex because I just wouldn’t give in to their “telephone us” demands. I wrote to Amex and said that RMA had ignored my contact in writing only request and consequently, as far as I’m concerned my complaint re RMA has not been resolved and Amex has wrote (dated 13th March) and said that my complaint has been escalated and will be investigated further.

Anyway, after around 10 days of silence (from RMA), today I have received a letter from Credit Solutions Limited who have lumped on over £700 as a file referral fee to my Amex debt and want the full amount on return. They state: Please do not simply write as our time limits are strict. In other words – phone us to confirm your payment has been sent. There is a payment slip attached to the letter.

 

My questions are:

• Can Amex pass the debt on to another DCA whilst a complaint is ongoing?

• Am I right in thinking that Amex should inform me before passing the debt on to another DCA?

I’m of the mindset that initially I should write to Amex and complain yet again or should I write a “CCA letter to Credit Solutions Limited”?

Any advice would be much appreciated, thankyou.

 

I too have an ongoing battle with CSL and I've just S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'d them because I have the feeling that they added charges to my account too. It's worth looking into because they may not be allowed to do this, see my thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/egg/84928-fred-bassett-egg-credit.html post 19 for the response from Rory.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Misterzeus]

Hi and thanks for your replies.

 

babybear39, so you’re saying that my complaint of harassment by RMA regarding trying to contact me through a third party (my brother) constitutes an unresolved dispute? Also, that Amex should have informed me before passing the debt on to another DCA and furthermore should not have done so prior to informing me?

 

The reason I was thinking about doing a CCA to CSL is to make sure I have proof of their dealings with Amex concerning my debt. So you think I should CCA Amex whilst reminding them that they have yet to resolve my complaint and that they have breached OFT guidelines?

 

 

Sorry if I appear dense, it’s just that I want to get it right!!

 

Fred Bassett, CSL have definitely added on charges of over £700, it states it on their letter. I’ve read the relevant post from the thread you posted, very interesting, I will have to follow that up because I’m sure that no such agreement exists between Amex and me.

[babybear39]

That's the way I would do it Misterzeus...Cut out the DCA and communicate with the original creditor, after all, they haven't resolved your complaint or given you a final answer Remind them also that if they don't, you WILL report them to the FOS who, if they see fit WILL charge them £400 for the pleasure of investigating your complaint

 

A CCA to amex wouldn't hurt either

[Misterzeus]

Thanks for your reply babybear39,appreciate your help very much

 

So I should completely ignore CSL then and just take the appropriate action mentioned before to Amex?

[babybear39]

If you don't feel comfortable ignoring CSL, copy them the letter you send to amex

[Misterzeus]

Thanks once again babybear39,

 

I don't suppose it would hurt to send a copy to CSL as well! Cheers!

[babybear39]

Thanks for the rep. comment whoever tipped my scales

[Misterzeus]

No worries babybear39, credit where credits due- no pun intended!

[Misterzeus]

Hi all,

 

Since my last post, I have received a response from Amex with a load of drivel and saying that they will waive the file referral fee (as shown on letter from CSL) in this instance, but insist that in my terms and conditions (I couldn’t find anything concerning this) they have the right to add on a referral fee.

 

I am not trying to avoid my debts, but should I CCA Amex or CSL, or both? The reason I am considering going down the CCA route is the latest letter from CSL shows the debt balance even higher than the last letter from them, the letter was dated the day after Amex’s letter informing me that file referral fee would be taken off.

 

It may be a question of CSL has not been advised of the fee being axed by Amex yet, or they could be trying it on. The problem is, I took out this CC in late 2005 and I think it was an online application. So I am after some advice as to whether I actually can request a CCA. I have been paying a token £1 each month since January (as advised by the National Debtline) direct to Amex.

 

Any help would be gratefully received, thanks.

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Hi

 

Did you CCA amex, if so you need to wait for them to furnish you with the agreement, time scales as you proberly know are 12+2 days afrter this they

will have defaulted, then after 30 days then conmmit a criminal offence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Bookworm]

2 threads merged, please stay on 1 thread per story, it's easier to follow that way.

[Misterzeus]

Apologies Bookworm, I did mean to find my old thread first!

 

Andy, thanks for your reply. No I haven't done a CCA to anyone as yet as I'm not sure that I can- due to acquiring the card late in 2005. I thought I read somewhere that any credit cards obtained after 2004 electronically meant they (CC Issuer) didn't have to supply a CCA. Or have I got that totally wrong?

 

I think I should CCA either Amex or CSL - if only to allow me to see the breakdown of figures, as I've said, the latest letter from CSL shows the balance with the added file referral fee (£739.18) and another fifty odd pounds.

 

What I need to know is, should I CCA Amex or CSL?

 

Many thanks

[Misterzeus]

Hi all,

 

I have received a reply to my CCA request to Amex (within time). All it includes is an Amex e-application, which basically contains all personal information when applying for the card, looks like a computer generated print out and a blank copy of their credit card agreement?

 

I think I applied for it late in 2005 online, does this mean Amex does not have to send a signed (by me) agreement?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks:)

[Misterzeus]

Hi All,

 

This post is in reference to my last post with the CCA from American Express. I wrote to them again and told them that it was not a true copy as it lacked any signatures (theirs or mine). I recieved a response stating that what they had sent was a CCA and I would not get anything else.

 

I have since finding a template letter on the CAG forum (thank you) wrote to them again and sent recorded delivery. They have recieved it and I am still waiting a reply to that letter. I think that they may well take more notice of that letter as it is brilliantly written by one of the forum's members.

 

Does anyone know if it's likely to be a true executed copy please? I have had nothing but grief with the DCA's they have assigned to this account, managed to get NCO Europe off my back and have CSL on it now.

 

Any help would be truly appreciated, thanks

[Misterzeus]

This morning, I have received a response from Amex to my letter sent at the beginning of the week (using the template from this forum – re: incorrect CCA response) and it has obviously has had a better effect than the previous one I had sent. They now say that they are dealing with my “complaint”.

 

Out of my nine creditors, Amex and Citi Cards have been the worst. They have given me that much grief that I have sent a CCA to both of them. I have been paying token payments every month to all of my creditors as my financial status is very grim. The only income I have is a war pension and a small army pension totalling just over £700 a month. I have applied for so many jobs that I’ve lost count, being over 50 obviously has a bearing on why I am getting nowhere! I am in despair that I’ll never get another job although I’ll keep trying. It is making me feel very demoralised and the fact that creditors and the DCA’s won’t accept that I can’t pay as opposed to won’t pay is not helping.

 

The deadline for Amex for the 12+2 days was up on the 2nd June, so they have another 30 days before they are in default is that correct?

 

Citi cards have just passed the 12+2 days deadline to respond and I have not heard a thing from them. They got Power2Contact on to me who made a visit after I had sent them the “doorstep” letter (from here, thank you) telling them not to. Citi have had two complaints from me dating back months ago which have not been dealt with yet.

 

If anyone has any advice re the Amex CCA originally sent mentioned in my earlier posts, I really would be grateful, thank you

[citizenB]

Misterzeus, are you able to scan in a copy of the agreement/application form you were sent. It will make it easier for people to comment on.

[Misterzeus]

citizenB, thank you so much for responding, I have scanned the e-application and the page which has the blank credit agreement, which you can see there are no signatures from either myself or Amex. I presume there is no need for me to scan every page or is there?

 

The “agreement” page was part of loose sheets numbering 13 in total which was titled “CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CREDIT CONSUMER ACT 1974”.

 

Thanks so much, I really appreciate your help with this.

 

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/Misterzeus/Amexscan1.jpg

 

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/Misterzeus/amexscan2.jpg

 

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/Misterzeus/Amexscan3.jpg

[citizenB]

Hi MrZeus, no, at this stage, I dont think there is any need to scan in the rest of the paperwork, I am assuming they will be the Terms and Conditions.

 

I have to be honest, I dont know if an e-application needs to bear your signature. I am sure I have seen somewhere on the forum someone else with the same type of agreement. I will do a search and see if I can find it.

 

Meanwhile, I will put a link to this thread on the CCA thread and see if someone will pop over and give their opinion for you.

 

Please dont be so despondent, you will get loads of support here.

[citizenB]

Hi again Mr Zeus, I have put a link on the Consumer Credit Act thread. Hopefully someone will pop in and give you some advice soon.

 

Meanwhile, you might want to have a look at the thread following the link below. From a cursory glance the document looks to be much the same as yours and it might find some useful information in the comments. It isnt a particularly long thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/137617-zhanzhibar-amex-aic-newman.html?highlight=Amex

[car2403]

Unfortunately for AMEX, even if the agreement is enforceable, without your signature, it's as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike!

 

They are prevented by s.127(3) CCA from enforcing the debt without your signature - this means you don't have to pay it.

 

If they DO have your signature, the documents they've sent you is is NOT an an enforceable agreement.

 

Send them this, in reply; (recorded delivery, of course)

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

 

In the meantime, with hold payments. If the DCA comes back to you, tell them that you are not willing to discuss this matter by phone and that they should write to you instead. Refuse to answer any questions, including their security questions, so they can't harass you. If they continue to push, come back to the thread and I have a letter that will put them back in their box.

 

Until you're given a correctly formatted, enforceable credit agreement, they don't have a leg to stand on.

[Misterzeus]

citizenB: Thanks so much for your reply and for posting a link to my thread for further help and a link to another thread that is similar to mine; it is much, much appreciated. I have had a read through that thread and it seems that they have had exactly the same CCA response as me.

 

I don’t feel as despondent as I was earlier now thanks to the help I am now receiving

 

Car2403: Thanks so much for your reply and the letter template you have given. I have only been paying £1 token payment a month anyway as that’s all I can afford currently. I have sent the letter below on Monday:

 

Re: My request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 02/06/08 to provide me with the true copy that I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. If you continue to try to enforce this debt without complying with my original request you will have committed a criminal offence and your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

I presume that’s another version of the template that you have so kindly posted? The reply from Amex regarding the above letter arrived this morning – stating that they are dealing with my “complaint”.

 

Judging by the first letter I sent them, telling them that I wasn’t happy with their so called CCA and their reply of basically “it is correct and that’s all you’re getting” attitude and today after sending the above letter (which obviously has more clout) and the reply, they are obviously worried!

 

Surely, if they do hold a signed by me document, they would have sent it wouldn’t they?

 

Don’t worry, neither Amex nor Credit Solutions Limited have access to my telephone number. When I moved some 18 months ago I did not have a telephone number at the time to give them, only my address. I never (thank goodness) got around to furnishing them with my new number. I find it stressful enough getting the creditor nasties (letters) without telephone harassment.

 

Two days after Amex sent me the “it is correct and that’s all you’re getting” letter, CSL wrote again. I have totally ignored them, haven’t had anything since.

 

Thank you for all your help, I can see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel now

[paulwlton]

I wouldn't pay another penny until a copy bearing your signature is produced. The regs allow that the signature MAY be omitted....there is no reason for a creditor to omit the signature unless of course they haven't got a signed copy..