Problem with new conservatory

[Bookworm]

Ta-da-DAH!!!!! *strikes pose*

 

[gyzmo]

Just while I am reading this, could you please state the following :

 

1. The name of the builder.

2. The name of the surveyor (did they work on behalf of the builder or id you appoint separately)

3. Did you pay for this on credit?

 

I know you maight have already mentioned these - I will get them if so. If not, please let me know the details (you can pm me if you don't want to name them publicly).

[gyzmo]

Just a few more things (it will be tomorrow before I can answer (apologies))

1. Was most of the negotiations (before you signed anything) done at your house or in their premesis or over phone?

2. Who is financing this? Is it a creditor who is separate from the builder, or is the builder themselves providing the credit?

3. Exactly what documents, plans, forms etc do you have that you can lay your hands on (that is - in your possesion - not ones that you would have to ask copies of)? These documents include EVERYTHING from when you first made contact.

4. During any negotiations, was there anyone else present?

5. Have you reported this to Consumer Direct yet?

6. Do you have a scanner to enable these to be sent to me (by PM - all confidential).

 

 

Also - click here to PM me (this is NOT an invitation for everyone else! Please post problems first as 99% of the time they can be answered!)http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=150908

[poppynurse]

I think I've pm'd you Gyzmo!

[gyzmo]

I've got it - will respond asap

[gyzmo]

Hi Poppynurse - you have a PM from me.

[poppynurse]

Hi Poppynurse - you have a PM from me.

 

 

Thanks Gyzmo. I will do as advised.

[Bookworm]

HEYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We want to know too!

[poppynurse]

I sent a letter detailing my complaints and offered two alternatives - rebuild or accept enclosed cheque in full and final settlement (around 20% less than final invoice). I marked the cheque clearly - in full and final settlement.

 

Now it's getting interesting - the company have sent me a letter saying they are not accepting my offer of rebuild or accepting reduced payment in full and final settlement and demand full payment in 7 days. But I've just checked my account and they have obviously banked it as it shows cleared from my account.

 

So, they are going to take me to court in 7 days but they have banked the cheque which clearly stated in full and final settlement. Having banked this cheque does that mean that they have no legal basis to proceed?

[Chesterexpress]

They have written and informed you that they are not prepared to accept your cheque in F&F and are therefore entitled to bank the cheque as part payment. Some will argue that they are not allowed to bank the cheque, however in the majority of these cases the courts will allow it as they have written to you immediately refusing your offer of F&F and have merely banked the cheque as part payment. How many times has this forum given exactly the same advice to those who have been offered part payment as F&F for reclaiming bank charges?

 

I am very surprised that you have no drawings showing the design and measurements etc. as normal practice would be to have everything down on paper (they will have). Without knowing the full facts if it proceeds to court I honestly think you will have a major struggle on your hands to win this.

[poppynurse]

It's the only time I've ever bought a conservatory so I didn't know that normal practice was to have a set of plans - they definately have not gven me anything other then the dimensions and prive on a contract with so much small print it's unbelieveable.

 

Their reply basically says they have built it as I asked - which they have not but I see that proving it may be difficult - but why would I ask them to build something I can't access to maintain down one side and need a stepladder to get out of? I'm just reluctant to pay the full invoice as I'm NOT HAPPY with the end product.

[Chesterexpress]

You say that on the contract you have the dimensions, how are these written does it just say contruct a 4m x 5m conservatory or does it say contruct a 4m w x 5m l conservatory?

 

As for the maintenance aspect, lots of people have these built so close to party walls/fences that they are unable to get down the side to clean etc. so not really much use as a defence I am afraid. Again regarding the lack of provision of steps, they could simply argue that you never requested them. Please don't think that I am trying to deter you, it is just that I simply look at the facts and do not let emotion get in the way of them.

[Bookworm]

There's a big difference between "proving beyond reasonable doubt" (criminal) and "balance of probabilities" (civil). It would boil down to what and who the judge believes. If the company tries to take you to court for the rest of the money, THEY will be expected to show that they have done the work for which they are claiming the money, which could make things interesting. The fact is, you are not refusing to pay outright, you are asking for redress in either a reduction in price or repair. A judge would have to decide, taking into account everything, whether he believes that you, a nurse with no knowledge of building, did in fact not get what she had ordered or whether you failed to specify what you wanted, also whether the company failed in its responsability towards their customer by not getting detailed enough instructions or whether they fully discharged their contractual obligations.

 

I don't know enough about buildings to fully understand what a previous poster has said about the wall and its possible import as regards building regulations, but if it is true, then there would be a very good argument to support your side of things, and I think you need to look into that further.

[poppynurse]

Well I'm waiting a call back from Trading Standards (Consumer Direct decided I was too complex!). I've sent them another letter expressing my disappointment that they are threatening court within seven days without trying to resolve this informally (hopefully the judge will take a dim view of this) and another cheque for a bit more in the hope that they will settle, quoting the supply of goods and servies act 1982.

 

At the end of the day I'm not happy with the conservatory and have to pay out more for steps. The lack of access may even invalidate the guarantee as I have to maintain it in good condition and can't get access to do so despite clearly requesting this. I think I'll let them take me to court and see what the judge thinks! They are clearly not bothered that I am very disappointed and just want the money. I definately won't be receommending them to my friends and will name and shame once this is dealt with!

[poppynurse]

You say that on the contract you have the dimensions, how are these written does it just say contruct a 4m x 5m conservatory or does it say contruct a 4m w x 5m l conservatory? It's just a brochure with the dimensions in and the model number on the contract with a rough sketch.

 

As for the maintenance aspect, lots of people have these built so close to party walls/fences that they are unable to get down the side to clean etc. so not really much use as a defence I am afraid. But I specifically told the surveyor that I required access down the side. Again regarding the lack of provision of steps, they could simply argue that you never requested them. He did not tell me there would be such a gradient or I would have factored that into my order/costings. I didn't request steps because I didn't know I would need them - surely he should have told me this? Please don't think that I am trying to deter you, it is just that I simply look at the facts and do not let emotion get in the way of them.

I know I appreciate your thoughts

[gyzmo]

Hey Poppynurse - you contacted TS yet?

[poppynurse]

Yes, but I'm waiting on a call back, hopefully today

[gyzmo]

Oooh keep us updated. Is it definitely Trading Standards? They will need to see the documents to give proper and accurate advice (which is why I could not be much more help!). fingers crossed.

[poppynurse]

Definately TS!

[poppynurse]

Right - long chat with TSO. Basically she told me to let them take me to court, I'm to defend and counterclaim and go armed with photos and copies of all correspondance (apparently I've been reasonable in trying to negotiate a solution, judge will take dim view that they wouldn't discuss problems and immediately threatened court action). She said I could take them to court for failing to exercise reasonable care and skill but I'll let them do the running. The judge will decide who's telling the truth, me a mere nurse who knows nothing about construction or them the 'professionals' who should be very experienced in what they do and advise customers with due care. Worse case scenario - I lose and pay up, best case they lose and I live with what I've got and pay less than the full price.

 

We'll see what response the co. come back with to my 'legal' letter.

[gyzmo]

Go for it! Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

It might also be worth asking TS if they do provide any kind of suport or representation in court. Some do, some don't. If not, see if you qualify for any legal assistance.

 

All fingers and toes crossed (and the cat is trying to cross his claws but not having much luck!)

[GuidoT]

If they are going to take you to court how much will it be for?

 

I am just thinking of your exposure to their legal costs if you lose.

[Bookworm]

Right - long chat with TSO. Basically she told me to let them take me to court, I'm to defend and counterclaim and go armed with photos and copies of all correspondance (apparently I've been reasonable in trying to negotiate a solution, judge will take dim view that they wouldn't discuss problems and immediately threatened court action). She said I could take them to court for failing to exercise reasonable care and skill but I'll let them do the running. The judge will decide who's telling the truth, me a mere nurse who knows nothing about construction or them the 'professionals' who should be very experienced in what they do and advise customers with due care. Worse case scenario - I lose and pay up, best case they lose and I live with what I've got and pay less than the full price.

 

My thoughts are these: If you were to fight this in court, it would boil down to who the judge believes is telling the truth "on a balance of probabilities". Worse case scenario, he finds in the other side's favour and you end up having to pay the full amount and not getting your conservatory the way you wanted it. If you don't fight it... well, that's exactly what is going to happen too. On the other hand, if the judge believes you, then you could end up with less to pay or them having to put it right, etc..

It's always nice to know TS agree with me.

[uPVC-Man]

Hi Poppynurse

I'm in the industry (conservatories) as a divisional manager for a large national (The 'Best' one )

As far as too close to your neighbours boundary is concerned, had we done that - we would be liable for any responsibilities regarding actions brought by yourself or subsequent buyer of your property.

We are required to document ALL aspects/elevations including drawings that are supplied to the manufacturing department, fitters, planners, YOU, and anyone else involved such as original builders if covenants are in place etc etc. THEY WILL HAVE SUCH DRAWINGS... In particular the so called surveryors survey reports and subsequent documents.

Does your original contract stipulate width/projection? Did anyone make any enquiries to local planners?

Depending on local authorities and how close to the boundary wall, you may have needed planning permission (irrespective of size). The builder should not proceed on the assumption that this is taken care of without getting you to sign an indemnity letter first. Certainly we would have been responsible had we done the same.

The original sales person should also have a document relating to width/projection together with the contract, the surveyor will begin his survey on...

I think they know they've botched it and are hoping you'll back down from their threats of legal action.

Sadly this sort of thing happens far more often than you'd think. I moved to the 'Best' company from another national coz of the appalling way my customers were treated.

Best of Luck - I think you've a strong case...

[NaciravBanks]

Hi PoppyNurse, Just been reading your thread and would like to wish you all the best with this situation you are going through.

 

I cant see how they can win in court unless they stand and lie!

If you all agreed on A,B & C to be done for X amount of monies. Then anything less then A-B & C is a breach and they should be liable. simple as.

 

Good Luck