Penalty Charges on Trains

[JOSH_IOU]

well you may have to prove who was right or wrong.

If you simply admit the fine and leave it be then its on record that you dodged the fare.

 

I am not sure but if you have payed the fine then there would be no need to prosecute you. Surley

[anon0]

When he initially approached me I didn't admit to having been on the train therefore, when it was later proven I was, he said the matter shall be reported and the chance to pay for my ticket had passed.

 

He didn't actually ask me to pay for the fare. At first he asked for my ticket. I showed him the oyster card and he checked it using a machine. Then he asked where I had come form. I didn't admit to being on the train at first. I realise it looked dishonest but I panicked at first. Later I offered to pay the fare and he said my chance had passed when I said i was not on the train.

[newfoundglory]

For the benefit of others who might read this thread..... you do not have to speak to ticket inspectors or answer any of their questions (unless they ask for your name and address). If you feel as though you want to speak, then state you are unable to make any comment.

 

It is an offence to provide a false name and address when asked, or no name and address, but you are under no obligation to provide ID, you do not have to show who you are or that the address you have given is correct. Do not swear or be abusive.

 

The simpliest solution is to pay the fare, but politely decline to pay any penalty there and then. Give your name and address if asked, but NEVER SIGN ANYTHING.

 

If you can, say nothing, and just walk away. If you feel the situation getting out of hand, say nothing, and just walk away.

[Pen]

it's without doubt you will get a summons but if I was in your position I would fight it all the way. my station is always closed so you have to board the train without a ticket.

 

Hong Kong have a similar system as the oyster card. How there's differ is that if you have not go enough credit on the card to complete a journey you could still use it and the journey would still be registered on your card with a minus balance however when you go to top up the card the unpaid fair would be debited from the balance. Seems a much better system, you can even use it at star bucks for a coffee whilst waiting for the train to arrive.

[tomterm8]

I'm not concerned so much about proving who was right and wrong or avoiding a penalty charge or a court fine. I understand that the facts say i was not in possesion of a valid ticket etc.

 

I'm concerned with having a criminal record for this.

 

it's a real pity that you admitted sonmething you basically didn't do... however, until you recieve a penalty notice or summons, there is really not much you can do.

[Pen]

Then I would be worried about a court fine as you will have a crimminal record if you get one. It seems to me your only way out of it is to defend it to the hilt.

[JOSH_IOU]

it's a real pity that you admitted sonmething you basically didn't do... however, until you recieve a penalty notice or summons, there is really not much you can do.

 

I agree

[JOSH_IOU]

Then I would be worried about a court fine as you will have a crimminal record if you get one. It seems to me your only way out of it is to defend it to the hilt.

 

 

If you are summoned.

 

Just out of interest What was the cost of the fine?

 

Was it the same as the fare?

[tomterm8]

Then I would be worried about a court fine as you will have a crimminal record if you get one. It seems to me your only way out of it is to defend it to the hilt.

 

I think it's rather too early to say as yet... there are two methods they can use; sending you a penalty notice, and/or sending a summons. in most cases they send you a penalty notice which costs £20+admin fee + ticket price... so maybe £60. If they do this, then you should pay it. In that case, I don't think you get a criminal record.

 

If they do decide to prosecute you, and you settle out of court, there will be no criminal record.

[Pen]

My Son was prosocuted by the RTP for having his feet on a seat. he was summoned but managed to get the duty solicitor involved and therefore reached an out of court settlement. but after all the recent press relating to penalty chargers I have to say that I would take my chances and fight it. As yet the RWs have never taken anyone to court for penalty fees.

 

Please note I am not saying that's what you should do, you have to do what's right for you.

Good Luck in whatever way you go.

[tomterm8]

Um, i disagree.

 

The rail bylaws are fairly clear, and it is a criminal offence. The penalty fee argument is irrelevant, because there is actually a criminal penalty set by parliament.

[Pen]

Ok So, as I have said, my station is always closed it's a very small station hardly ever used. So whenever I board a train I have to do so knowing I haven't got a ticket. My conductor knows this about our station so when on board he just takes the normal fare, however it for some reason there was a new conductor on the day I was traveling and he did not know about my station would I have to except the fine, Hmm so how I don't think so as it was not my intention to board a train without paying for a vaild ticket. There were no aminities at the station for me to buy one. Had the booth been open and i delibratly avoided paying that would have been a different matter.

 

I would argue intent and a guilty mind if you intended to fraud then yes except the penalty but if that was not your intent don't.

 

- 'An act does not make a person legally liable unless the mind is legally blameworthy'.

[newfoundglory]

Actually, AFAIK penalty fares can only be issued on-the-spot by a person authorised to do so. They cannot be issued retrospectively after the event.

 

Penalty fares are a disputed civil liability or debt, and are to be recovered through the civil courts (not the criminal courts). This is why penalty fares have never been challenged in the courts. Also, its a "one or the other", in order to prevent double liability. If you pay a Penalty fare, and are then later prosecuted you are no longer liable to pay the penalty and would be due an immediate refund of said penalty.

 

My point was that, although technically an strict liability offence had likely been committed under bylaws for which no intent has to be proven, the poster should defend any prosecution under Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (as amended).

 

In this case, an out-of-court settlement would likely be able to be reached for maybe £50 to £150 in order to cover case processing and/or court costs up to that point.

[MilkTrayMan]

i'm not a lawyer, so i'm posting for information and entertainment purposes only. do not assume anything i have said is correct.

Enough said!...

[MrBloom]

Hi Guys,

 

Back in September I was cautioned by SWT trains in south London, and had a statement taken. I was caught without a ticket and was found to have given incorrect details. Before giving incorrect details (regrettable) I offered to pay 50% of the penalty fee, which I had in cash and they would then send me a bill for the remaining balance, this is when the incorrect details were given and the situation spiralled out of control

 

I received a letter from the prosecutions department in November asking to verify and confirm my name and address, NI number, DOB etc, which I supplied them with. They also asked for any mitigating circumstances. Quite frankly I didn’t have any mitigating circumstances, except that this was the first time this has happened to me and I normally pay my fares.

 

Essentially my question is this, I have been preparing myself for the worst, essentially a criminal record and some sort of fine. But what I’m not happy about is how long I’ve been left in limbo not knowing. Its coming up to 6 months since the incident, do any of you fair minded people know how slow/fast the wheels of the SWT prosecutions department work??

[Pen]

what a hard lesson to learn. I don't think they will be in a rush to prosecute you as it is only a petty offence however I don't think they will forget it either looks like you will just have to wait it out I'm afraid. When my son was prosecuted for having his foot on a seat it took about 3 months I think.

[jimmylesaint]

Quite frankly it amazes me why people pay train fares!! Don't get me wrong, i play rugby and am squashed and sweaty and hot during the game, i do this for recreational fun.#I don't pay an absurd amount to be squashed up and standing just to get to work and back. Make a stand!

Surely any public demand of the penalty that causes humiliation, stress etc......

[JOSH_IOU]

Totally irrelevant!!!

 

A Passenger has a duty to have in his /her possession, a valid ticket for his/her entire journey BEFORE he/she boards a train.

 

The ONLY exception to this would be if he/she boarded at a station where ticket purchases are unavailable...i.e NO ticket office/ticket issuing machine.

 

If this is the case, it is the passengers responsibility to obtain a valid ticket at THEIR 1st reasonable opportunity...i.e From an onboard Train Manager/Guard etc, or at a suitable Ticket Office, either at their destination, or preferably, whilst changing trains en route.

 

Whilst acknowledging that it is quite possible to 'ARRIVE' at a Penalty Fare Station, from a NON-Penalty Fare Station, the passenger has usually had the chance of obtaining a valid ticket + so your initial statement does NOT hold true.

 

...Unless U are inferring that U are personally aware of a Penalty Fare Station that has NO signage to this effect??...

 

MT since when has it been the duty of an English citizen to not protest?

[MilkTrayMan]

MT since when has it been the duty of an English citizen to not protest?

Since the population achieved Universal Sufferage + there became democratic means to voice one's opinions about the Laws of the Land...8-)

[JOSH_IOU]

lol I rest my case

[Pen]

ha ha ha

[Gary29]

Castlebest If I was "fair dodging" why would I go to buy a ticket as soon as I arrived? It just made the rail staff and the company look very petty and confirmed my "jobsworth" image of people who work for the railways. I just think when a passenger tries to purchase a ticket whether this is at the beginning or the middle of their journey (was a return I asked for) it seems very petty to check up. I agree if I had been stopped and challenged by an inspector this would have been a very different scenario and I wouldnt blame anyone for checking my story

 

My husband Gary29 is a jobsworth and so is one of the mods on this board, he has been a guard for 13 and a half years, it is part of what he is paid to do, which is issue and check tickets, he has been assualted once in that time by someone who did not want to buy a ticket and was quite happy to P**s his fare money up the wall and travel with out paying.

 

And sorry to say but how are guards meant to know that you are trust worthy person and willing to pay for your ticket and tell the truth about which station you got on at.

 

The amount of passengers that lie about what station they got on at, most guards on South eastern trains, now watch what station passengers get on at, so they know what fare they should be paying.

 

Tell you what how would you like to swap JOBS with gaz for a week and then tell me that he is a jobs worth, dealing p**s heads and the like, with verbal abuse, from customers on a daily basis.

 

Also if you walked into a shop and the shop keeper was stocking shelves, would you take what you want and then walk out without paying??????

[Gary29]

Hi Guys,

 

Back in September I was cautioned by SWT trains in south London, and had a statement taken. I was caught without a ticket and was found to have given incorrect details. Before giving incorrect details (regrettable) I offered to pay 50% of the penalty fee, which I had in cash and they would then send me a bill for the remaining balance, this is when the incorrect details were given and the situation spiralled out of control

 

I received a letter from the prosecutions department in November asking to verify and confirm my name and address, NI number, DOB etc, which I supplied them with. They also asked for any mitigating circumstances. Quite frankly I didn’t have any mitigating circumstances, except that this was the first time this has happened to me and I normally pay my fares.

 

Essentially my question is this, I have been preparing myself for the worst, essentially a criminal record and some sort of fine. But what I’m not happy about is how long I’ve been left in limbo not knowing. Its coming up to 6 months since the incident, do any of you fair minded people know how slow/fast the wheels of the SWT prosecutions department work??

 

SWT is part of stagecoach, gaz has just told me, that it is not down to SWT prosecutions department, it is now out of their hands, it is down to the BRITISH COURT SYSTEM. The courts may see it as fare evasion and that you have lied, it may be better for you take the punishment, that they hand down.By law you have to give correct name and add and then they give you the pace statement.By not doing that you've broken that law.

[JOSH_IOU]

bye-law

[Gary29]

bye-law

 

Eh? What do you mean?