Deposit and evil landlady!!

[faithdw]

Hi there,

 

I am very close to taking my landlady to court for unfairly retaining my entire deposit - £1125.

 

I have a couple of questions that i would appreciate some advice on.

 

Firstly, i accidently forgot to remove some items -(irreplacable letters photos etc dating back 20 years) from the attic. I mentioned to the agents i wanted to re enter to get them and also wrote to the present tenants. She has now dumped these and charged me £140 for the pleasure. Is she legally entitled to do this??

 

Also the agent today hinted that if i were to go further with the claim she would then add on further expenses. It took her 3 and a half months to give me a list of the things she felt should be deducted, which i am now in the process of attempting to negotiate. He said that if it were to go ahead to court she is likely to try and add on further costs for damage to floorboards which she has not previously mentioned. Is she allowed to do this??

 

Any advice would be very greatfully received.

[GlasweJen]

Hmm tough one, I know that the landlady would be entitled to charge you storage for these items but I don't know if she could legally have them removed.

 

What exactly are the deductions for?

[faithdw]

Basically is a very long story... to keep it brief,

 

she is charging for replacement of carpets in the entire house - £800. Only some of the carpets had been replaced 2 years ago and were free of any stains or marks. they were worn but were hallway carpets replaced in a light cream colour. I was told the others would be replaced but they weren't.

 

Painting of one room - £350

 

Painting of kitchen - £420

 

I had been told for the previous 2 years that she would re decorate and only agreed to a rent increase on this assurance.

 

Removal of my things in the attic - £140

 

Plus several other stupid little things that add up to about £300!!!!

 

All of it adds up to way more than my deposit.

 

I dispute it all and have photos of the house and carpets as evidence.

[GlasweJen]

She can't charge you for fair wear and tear to the carpets. Did she give a reason why the room and kitchen needed painting (i.e were there marks on the walls or had nicotine turned them yellow?) What state were the walls in before you moved in? Is the state of the walls and carpet detailed on the inventory?

[faithdw]

I know, she is being completely unreasonable and i am pretty sure the judge will see it that way in court!!

 

Just not sure where i stand with the attic stuff really and whether she can chop and change her mind about the problems in the house after negotiations have started.

 

I am pretty sure she cant, but some legal backing or simalar experiences from others would be good to know about!!

 

Thanks for your help x

[Ed999]

What did the tenancy agreement say about items left in the property by the tenant?

 

Abandoned property can't be stolen, so it might be difficult to prove theft of the items.

 

As to the deposit, read this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/landlords-tenants/117572-unfair-deposit-deductions.html

 

 

 

Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

[MrShed]

When did the tenancy begin? When did it end? When did you ask to reclaim the property? Do you have this in writing? Did you ever ask in writing? Do you have photographs at the start and end of tenancy? Did you sign a fully detailed inventory at the beginning of the tenancy? Did this inventory detail the condition of the items under dispute? How was the deposit held - as stakeholder or landlords agent?

 

Unfortunately nowhere near enough information supplied to even begin answering the questions. ALL of the questions I have just listed need answering to get a full and even close answer.

[Ed999]

Sorry, but I don't think we need any of that information from the o/p.

 

It is not a defence to a charge of theft that the owner of the property never said "I don't want you to nick my stuff"!

 

Theft is theft, and the only question is whether the contract between the parties gave the landlord any legal rights in the goods concerned, or, if not, whether they amount to "abandoned property" and are therefore incapable of being stolen.

 

This is a question of criminal law, and needs the advice of a solicitor. It cannot be answered here.

 

 

 

Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

[MrShed]

The timescale in question would absolutely define whether the property was classed as abandoned or not, especially in the case where there is no such information in the tenancy agreement, as would any proof that the tenant had attempted to reclaim the property prior to its disposal. There is no automatic assumption in legal terms that the property is abandoned. Timescale and communication aspects are absolutely key here. Also bear in mind Ed that this is not JUST a disposal of property question, but also a deposit deduction question.

[faithdw]

Many thanks for your replies,

 

i do not have time this morning to post the whole story.. it is long but i will certainly do it tonight as any advice is very, very welcome.

 

With regards the items in the attic, I have researched it now and it could well fall under the theft head or more likely criminal damage - as noted this is a criminal matter. I was just wondering really if anybody else had simalar experiences.

 

I do have several more questions about other deductions and issues and will post these this eve.

 

Many thanks

[MrShed]

As I say faith, I kinda need the answers to those questions to deduct whether it is a theft matter

 

I shall await your post tonight lol. If you want you could quickly post when you moved out and when you first requested the property back?

[faithdw]

I moved out on the 23rd July...requested verbally that i wanted to go back in a couple of weeks later, but i cant prove this!!!!

 

I then wrote a letter about 4 weeks after i moved out to the present tenants to ask them if I could go into the house and get into the attic. I got no reply so I went and knocked and asked the girl personally, she assured me she would check the loft but never got back to me.

 

I only found out last week 30th October that she had dumped it!!

 

will post more this eve!!

 

Thanks!!!!

[MrShed]

So unfortunately the request to the letting agent to retrieve the property was never put in writing?

 

The issue here is whether or not the property is classed as abandoned. The attempt to retrieve the property verbally clearly shows that it was not abandoned. However, you cannot prove this. There is a general rule(not "hard coded" in law) that three months is a reasonable time scale to store a previous tenants left property before disposing of it. It appears that she has stored the property for this period of time and then disposed of it.

 

With this in mind, I feel that any criminal case would fail - I do not feel that it would be shown that the landlady actually infringed the definition of theft:

 

The Theft Act 1968 Section1 (1) states that a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

With regards a civil case, your problem is not being able to prove that you attempted to retrieve the property. However, a small claims court case is on a balance of the evidence - basically who the judge believes. It could go either way on the day. The wording of the tenancy agreement, if any, on the subject would be interesting to see. However, I think that Ed very much overstates the importance of this. I think there is enough on this subject in common law to mean that the wording is not all that significant.

[faithdw]

Right, so here is the long story!!

 

I am claiming for £1125 in respect of a deposit held by an agent on behalf of my landlady.

 

 

 

 

Before I originally moved into the above property, I was assured that the whole house would be redecorated in neutral tones and that the carpets throughout were to be replaced. For two days leading up to me moving in a decorator was there and repainted the hallway and I believe ‘touched up’ some of the rooms. I have been assured by a reputable company that to redecorate the property completely would have taken at least ten days to two weeks. The carpets were not replaced. I complained to the agency about this and about several other issues with the property.

 

 

Over the course of my four year tenancy I made repeated attempts to ask for repairs, new carpets and decoration. I was always unhappy about the length of time it took to resolve any issue and in many instances was simply ignored.

 

 

 

In about November 2005 the hallway carpets were replaced. I spoke to the landlady on the phone on several occasions leading up to this. We agreed that the carpets should be replaced in a dark colour as the road was such a dirty one and I distinctly remember her telling me they were to be in a coffee colour. They were eventually replaced in a very light beige. In such a high traffic area such as a hallway and stairs they were very hard to keep clean. she also agreed at this time that she would redecorate the property.

 

 

In February 2006, the owner of the agency attended the property to check some leaks going into the flat below and also agreed that the decoration could take place.

 

 

In July 2006, I made a verbal agreement with the agency that I would only agree to the rent increase they were asking for if the redecoration and other work were to be carried out. I was assured this would be done and by March 2007 I decided that there was never any intention of this and decided I would terminate my tenancy when it ended.

 

 

It is also noteworthy that the property was subject to an inspection every three to six months during the four year tenancy. I was never given any indication that it was felt the property was in any state of disrepair. Quite the contrary in fact. I often used these inspection times to point out issues that needed resolving.

 

 

After i moved out i made repeated attempts by telephone to get my deposit back. After a while it became clear this was not going to be done.

 

I then continued to write letters asking for definitive reasons why my deposit was being retained.

 

Eventually three and a half months later, after my LBA!!, i received the reasons from the agency.

 

they are;

 

Cleaning of property, walls floors carpets etc - £90.00 - the house was spotless!!

 

Painting required to touch up damage, above wear and tear, replacement of kitchen light fitting and fitting of smoke alarm. - £420.00 - the kitchen should have been redone before i even moved in.

 

Painting of rear room walls and ceilings!! - £350.00 - a white room - would have needed to be repainted after 4 years!!

 

Repair to washing machine pump - £68.00

 

Removal of rubbish from attic - £140.00 - as discussed above

 

Replacement of carpets - £800.00 - the entire house!! she is maintaining the that all the carpets in the house were replaced in november 2005 - it was ONLY the hallway and stairs!! The hall carpet had no stains AT ALL, was just worn!!

Smoke alarm - £8.98 - there was never a smoke alarm fitted!!

 

Door handle and lock - £29.16 - never remember the lock working!!

 

I have written and said i dispute all of the above - there were a couple of small things also that i admitted were my responsibilty, About £70!!

 

After a meeting with the agent yesterday, i agreed to pay a small contribution to the replacement of the hallway carpet but have not yet heard back from them.

 

he also said that it was not really the kitchen and back room that needed repainting, but that there was drawings on the wall in the kids room - and that needed doing!! So changed the goalposts really!!!

 

He also said that if i do decide to take it further, she is likely to add on more costs for damaged wooden flooring - surely she cant just keep changing her mind at this late stage!!

 

I have photos of most of the rooms, garden, carpets, inside of oven from the day i left.

 

Any way, good god that was long, sorry to bore any one, but any advice greatly appreciated!!!

 

Thanks!!!

[Ed999]

It would be prudent for you to post here full details of any clause(s) in the tenancy agreement that are relevent to the matters you have raised.

 

"Abandonment" has a specific technical meaning under the Theft Act, and you would need to consult a solicitor for legal advice. This is a landlord and tenant forum, and we cannot answer for matters of criminal law.

 

I doubt that Mr Shed has ever defended a client prosecuted for theft on the basis of a defence that the property alleged to be stolen had no owner, being "abandoned property". So there is no one here with any experience of such a defence.

 

We are here to share our personal experience with you. We cannot give you legal advice.

 

As to the deposit, read this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/landlords-tenants/117572-unfair-deposit-deductions.html

 

 

 

Advice & opinions on this forum are offered informally, without any assumption of liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

[MrShed]

I doubt that Mr Shed has ever defended a client prosecuted for theft on the basis of a defence that the property alleged to be stolen had no owner, being "abandoned property". So there is no one here with any experience of such a defence.

 

 

With respect Ed, the issue of theft does not come into it abandoned or not - the property was not dishonestly appropriated.

[faithdw]

Thanks for your reply,

 

It was personal experience i was after, not legal advice!

 

I have just finished 6 years of studying law and have discussion forums within my uuniversity where i have sought legal help from other students.

 

I just found this forum by chance yesterday and was encouraged by the many people on here in a similar situation to myself. It is good to hear that people just don't back down when faced with money grabbing landlords!!

[faithdw]

I actually spoke to a criminal barrister a moment ago and theft will definitely not apply!! No dishonesty!!

 

Criminal damage is also very unlikely, i have only a civil claim.

[MrShed]

You have missed unfortunately the most important question, which is did you sign a fully detailed inventory upon moving into the property? Also you say you have photographs, do you have any when you moved in?

 

With regards the left possessions, I would certainly tag it on to a claim for the rest of the deposit, but I would probably not persue it individually - does that make sense?

[faithdw]

There is an inventory with photos which I refused to sign as there were a few things on there that were not correct. I.e that the carpets were in a good condition, which they were not. The photos on the inventory are the same as the ones i took upon leaving, and the rooms look virtually identical - if not cleaner!!!!

 

Yes, with regards my possessions, i intend to just refuse to pay to have them removed, They were not worth any money any way - just sentimental really!!!

[MrShed]

Do you still have a copy of of the inventory you refused to sign? The refusal to sign puts you in a very strong position IMO.

 

I will detail the items above, as it is always safer to not base a claim on just one argument.

 

- Cleaning £90. Quite subjective, but if the property was as spotless as you say, and with the photos to back it up, quite easy to win.

- What was the issue with the kitchen light fitting and the smoke alarms? £420 to redecorate is excessive to say the least, especially when fair wear and tear, as well as your photographs, would negate the vast majority of this cost.

- £350 for repainting room again seems excessive. Were the walls excessively marked?

- What was the issue with the washing machine pump? How old was the machine?

- Funnily enough, the removal of rubbish from the attic is probably the LEAST likely for you to be able to win! This is not an issue covered by the inventory, and it is reasonable(now that we are going on the basis of abandoned property) to take payment for removal costs. Depending upon the quantity of items however, £140 seems highly excessive.

- The replacement of carpets is ludicrous. For a kick off it is not like for like, and it also sounds like fair wear and tear only.

- The lock really depends on whether the lock was broken during your tenancy. Difficult to prove without an inventory. What door are we talking about?

 

Yes he can add more costs if he really wants at a later stage - he may not be able to claim them, but on the other hand if he can justify them he may.

 

The underlying issue is that without a signed inventory he is really going to struggle. On top of that, it appears that fair wear and tear has gone out of the window, as well as like for like replacement. I feel you have a very strong case, OTHER THAN the claim for your personal possessions and(as I say ironically) the charge for the removal of said possessions.

[faithdw]

Many thanks for your comments!

 

Yes, i do have a copy of the inventory.. the one i refused to sign, thank goodness i kept it.

 

The walls were not excessively marked at all in the rooms they are claiming the money for - the agent even said so. there were some (must have been small) kids drawings in an entirely different room.

 

the light fitting had been removed by an someone from the agency on the day i moved in as all the electrics failed. I kept the broken light fitting in a cupboard.

 

The fitting of smoke alarm - there had never been a smoke alarm in the property.

 

The washing machine - she is claiming it was broken by a childs toy blocking this! - I had complained on a number of occasions about the w machine and when someone did come to look at it I was told it had been really badly fitted. the drainage pipe was going up instead of down which caused it to block easily and a hideous smell!

 

The lock did break whilst i was in the house, so she can have the £30 for that!!

 

The main cost is obviously the carpets and painting - which at over £1500 is just ridiculous.

 

I think it would look pretty bad for her in court if she now changes which rooms she needed to get painted and starts adding further expenses. Especially is it looks as if she is refusing to negotiate at this stage.

 

I am going to the court on Monday to get the N1 form, as she is unlikely to back down now.

 

I will hopefully get a sympathetic judge who realises how evil she was throwing out my things when a simple call would have sorted this out. I am also going to try and retrieve the letter I sent to the present tenants and find out if they informed her they were there before she removed them!

 

I think i have a very strong case too and just want this whole thing over with!!

 

Thanks again

[becka]

download and fill in N1 form here Her Majesty's Courts Service - Home

 

Forms and Guidance on the left - you can then have it to take with you when you go to the court on Monday (saving yourself a trip!!)

[faithdw]

Thanks for that !!!!!

[faithdw]

Hi there, me again!!

 

I, had a meeting with the agents last Tuesday to try and negotiate this. They said they would call me back that afternoon. No call!

 

I emailed on Thursday to ask them what was happening and was told to receive a call the next day. No call or email!!

 

I had obviously sent the LBA before these negotiations with the cut off date being last Thursday.

 

Do i need to give them another letter or call to warn them of taking this to court or do I just proceed now.

 

It is nearly 4 months since i moved out!!

 

Any advice appreciated!!