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    • Please see my comments in orange within your post.
    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.   House or Flat? Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. Lenders have a legal obligation to sell the property for the best price they can get. If they feel the offer is low they won't sell it, because it's likely the borrower will say the same. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Again, points as above. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) Why serve a delapidations notice? If it's in the terms of the lease to maintain the property to a good standard, then serve an S146 notice instead as it's a clear breach of the lease. I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. Enfranchisement isn't something that can be "voided", it's in the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 that leaseholders have the right to buy the freehold of the property. It's normal, whether it is a "normal" leaseholder or a repossession with a leasehold house, to claim this right of enfranchisement and sell the property with said rights attached and the purchase price of the freehold included in the final completion price. That's likely what the mortgage provider wished to do. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Redact and scan said evidence up for others to look at? Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. So this is dealt with then. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.  You wouldn't vary a lease through a lease extension. You'd need a Deed of Variation for that. This may be done at the same time but the lease has already been extended once and that's all they have a right to. The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved. The lease has already been extended once so they have no right to another extension. It seems pretty easy to just get the lawyer to say no and stick by those terms as the law is on your side there. Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. Again, order them to revert it as they didn't have permission to do the works, or else serve an S146 notice for breach of the lease. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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PCN for for Loading Bay when Loading !


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:-x We are a small family business and this morning, my husband parked in our high street in a parking area which has some loading bay spaces and some pay and display spaces, as the lines are all 'worn off/not clear' (typical in the Medway Towns) he paid for a pay and display ticket for one hour just to cover him...this was at 9.17am, he went to do his pick up, came back a couple of minutes later and at 09.21am there was a Penalty Charge Notice for £60 (reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days) stating Contravention Code 25 'reasonable cause to believe that the following parking contravention occured: parking in a loading bay during restricted hours without loading' Its ridiculous he was in a WHITE ESTATE CAR obviously a work vehicle!!!

We have taken a photo of the 'loading bay/parking space' and the words 'loading bay are clearly NOT Visible'

HELP I remember watching a documentary about PCNs being unenforceable due to badly done lines/non apparent lines etc can anyone advise me out there PLEASE !!!

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An estate care is only obviously an estate car - not a work vehicle. (Although it does help if you have a trading name painted on the side). Before this type of ticket is written, the PA usually 'hovers' and if there has been no activity in loading, or if the driver remains out of view, it is treated as parking. You can sometimes challenge this if the person at the address near where the ticket was obtained confirms a delivery in order for it to be cancelled, but if not - you're stuck.

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An estate care is only obviously an estate car - not a work vehicle. (Although it does help if you have a trading name painted on the side). Before this type of ticket is written, the PA usually 'hovers' and if there has been no activity in loading, or if the driver remains out of view, it is treated as parking. You can sometimes challenge this if the person at the address near where the ticket was obtained confirms a delivery in order for it to be cancelled, but if not - you're stuck.

 

I was just making a point that it is an Estate Car which is obviously a work vehicle because its a commercial estate car with signwriting on it!

 

We have a 'witness/our customer' who is happy to prove we were at his premises collecting and delivering for those few minutes.

 

Its the line thing I am getting at, the lines are not there!! No visible loading bay markings or signs anywhere, its ridiculous you are penalised for being a worker and tax payer in this country....

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If you were only loading and unloading, there was no need to purchase a parking ticket. By doing this you were confirming you were Parking and not loading or unloading! There would be no issue of yellow lines being visible. From the point of view of other drivers that do deliveries, they often cannot because of cars parking where they shouldn't. You might have to explain why you bought and displayed a parking ticket if you had no intention of doing so (especially when in a loading bay) but a statement from the customer confirming the delivery should suffice.

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If you were only loading and unloading, there was no need to purchase a parking ticket. By doing this you were confirming you were Parking and not loading or unloading! There would be no issue of yellow lines being visible. From the point of view of other drivers that do deliveries, they often cannot because of cars parking where they shouldn't. You might have to explain why you bought and displayed a parking ticket if you had no intention of doing so (especially when in a loading bay) but a statement from the customer confirming the delivery should suffice.

 

He bought a pay and display ticket because as you imagine a row of parking bays, there are a couple of bays that 'used to be' loading bays, I say used to be as the markings have all but disappeared through wear. Therefore just to make sure, he bought a pay and display ticket to be covered from all angles!! I just begrudge paying the fine then appealing.

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He bought a pay and display ticket because as you imagine a row of parking bays, there are a couple of bays that 'used to be' loading bays, I say used to be as the markings have all but disappeared through wear. Therefore just to make sure, he bought a pay and display ticket to be covered from all angles!! I just begrudge paying the fine then appealing.

You don't pay the charge then appeal. If you pay you have no right of appeal.

You need to get clear on what constitutes loading and unloading.

You also need to be clear on inadequate signage of restrictions.

I recommend you look at the key cases on the PATAS (inside London) and NPAS (outside London) web sites.

There is nothing to stop you cross-referencing cases (eg using a London one if you are outside London).

Then there is the wording of the PCN itself, can you scan and reproduce it here?

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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The contravention is not loading in a loading bay the type of vehicle is of no relevance unless the contravention is 23. Even if it was a bright orange TNT lorry it would still get a ticket if it was not loading or unloading. As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

You argument about the lines is perfectly valid but stick to that rather than going off on a tangent about other matters that dont affect the validity of the PCN.

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The contravention is not loading in a loading bay the type of vehicle is of no relevance unless the contravention is 23. Even if it was a bright orange TNT lorry it would still get a ticket if it was not loading or unloading. As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

You argument about the lines is perfectly valid but stick to that rather than going off on a tangent about other matters that dont affect the validity of the PCN.

This comes across as a tad patronising and unhelpful. I hope that wasn't the intent.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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As for penalising a tax payer and worker do you suggest just those on the dole get parking tickets?

 

No not at all but I was just simply ranting that as a business owner we pay enough taxes (more than an 'employed person') and we were just going about our normal business and get penalised for working... I made no reference whatsoever to anyone as you put it 'on the dole'!!

 

Sorry dont want to argue with anyone, just wanted some advice from the well informed contributors to this site.

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Can anyone tell me if I pay the penalty charge at the reduced rate can I appeal at the same time? Its just I would rather pay the reduced rate and appeal rather than lose the appeal and have to pay £60 instead.

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Can anyone tell me if I pay the penalty charge at the reduced rate can I appeal at the same time? Its just I would rather pay the reduced rate and appeal rather than lose the appeal and have to pay £60 instead.

 

No you can't. There is no appeal if you pay.

 

Trying to pay the reduced rate and also appealing is known as having your cake and eating it.

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No you can't. There is no appeal if you pay.

 

Trying to pay the reduced rate and also appealing is known as having your cake and eating it.

 

Thanks for that... they seem to get you all ways!! think I will just have to pay up and shut up!!

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This comes across as a tad patronising and unhelpful. I hope that wasn't the intent.

 

What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

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What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

When I post, I tend to think about what I would find helpful if I was asking the question.

 

Bit like the dreaded question when shopping with the other half "does my bum look big in this?" The unadulterated truth is not always the most helpful.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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What is patronising and unhelpful about my post it is factual and advises the OP to appeal on the grounds of dodgy markings rather than what he considers is an obvious goods vehicle or the fact that they pay taxes neither of which will win an appeal.

 

He is actually a she............ also I was not going to use the 'we pay taxes' in my appeal, I was merely ranting that again its always the same workers/business owners get penalised constantly just for earning a living.. thats all no detriment to anyone else!!

 

I have been posting on this site for over a year now and I have read 1000's of posts where people can quite rightly rant about things that have affected them after all it is a Consumers Forum!

 

I have decided after much research tonight to appeal against the ticket as I have had the pictures printed of the space that my husband took and it says very very faded on the road marking 'pay and display'!!

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I'm afraid 'faded' doesn't provide much of a defence - it would have to be a high percentage (80% or more) before it could be argued the line was so illegible as to be invisible. After all, the line only tells the driver to look at the regulation plates which DO need to be fully visible for enforcement to succeed.

 

However all this is academic. The situation as described related to a parking ticket being purchased for use in a loading bay. A warden would have every right to ticket immediately, based on no driver seen loading/unloading (irrespective of vehicle type) and a valid parking permit displayed, which confirmed the driver's intention to actually 'park'. As noted earlier, if unloading etc, there would be no reason to purchase any parking ticket.

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If you are going to appeal, the golden rule is to appeal on the grounds that are most likely to get the ticket cancelled. These may not be the same as the grounds that make you feel aggrieved.

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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I'm afraid 'faded' doesn't provide much of a defence - it would have to be a high percentage (80% or more) before it could be argued the line was so illegible as to be invisible. After all, the line only tells the driver to look at the regulation plates which DO need to be fully visible for enforcement to succeed.

 

However all this is academic. The situation as described related to a parking ticket being purchased for use in a loading bay. A warden would have every right to ticket immediately, based on no driver seen loading/unloading (irrespective of vehicle type) and a valid parking permit displayed, which confirmed the driver's intention to actually 'park'. As noted earlier, if unloading etc, there would be no reason to purchase any parking ticket.

 

Having researched this, its apparent that the law states you have up to 30 minutes to load/unload in a loading bay as its fairly obvious delivery drivers for instance have to get paperwork signed etc.

 

The markings were 95% disappeared, that area of the six parking bays has always been confusing, with the markings being non apparent for some time now its hard to see which of the 6 bays are pay and display and which are loading... thats why a pay and display ticket was purchased and now looking at the photos he was actually parked in a pay and display space! So the ticket for loading/unloading etc is crap!

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Just a quick note, in our local rag yesterday there is a current investigation underway as to if our Parking attendants in our council are targeted as allegedly an 'ex warden' has said they have to issue '7 tickets' a day!!!

 

See they get you every which way they can!!

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7 a day is that all!! ;) Thats less than 1 an hour! I challenge you to walk for 1 hr and not find a single car in contravention its rarely possible to do so except on the odd occasion.

All Councils have a bench mark for issuing PCNs based on previous years tickets and traffic surveys on compliance. The Council then will set a buget based on this figure which will then be averaged out over the year per PA which in this case is 7 a day. If what you are saying is true then one could look at it the other way and once the PA had done his 7 he could go sit in the cafe all day! If there were no bench marks a contractor could come in take a couple of million £ off the Council for enforcement and let the PAs sit in the park all day reading the paper. Contractors get financially penalised by Councils for issuing cancelled PCNs due to officer error so its not in their interest to encourage officers to issue unlawful PCNs.

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