Don Leocornay Vs HSBC

[don leocornay]

On the advice of one of the members, I'm moving my thread here.

 

For the full story on what's going on, please check out the below link:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/92344-don-leocornays-gonna-kick.html

 

It's split over a couple of forums but the long a nd short of it is this:

 

1/ Got into problems with HSBC over Credit Card debt

2/ They hounded me on the phone for a year even though I was making payments.

3/ The only help they offered was a Managed Loan (followed by threats of court action)

4/ Agreed over the telephone but didn't sign anything

5/ With-held payments until they produced a signed copy.

6/ They've issued a final demand.

 

Any advice would be gratefully appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Don

[clutchingatstraws]

CCA immediately

 

Letter N templates library

 

The managed loan is a good indication that they have *** all.

to claim this debt.

 

Good luck.

 

Cas

[2Grumpy]

Can you confirm whether you took the managed loan or not

 

Did you send an actual CCA request? If so, what have they replied with?

 

Are they using a DCA or chasing themselves?

 

Are they threatening court action. If so, if there is no CCA this might be your best and cheapest bet - defend it yourself & submit a counterclaim. If they are taking you to court, you can save on the £10 SAR fee by waiting until they take any action.

 

Have you written to say that the account is in dispute and they should not be chasing you?

 

Grumpy

[don leocornay]

Sorry wasn't being clear.

 

Agreed to managed loan over the phone (2004), but didn't sign any paperwork.

 

Thought I was stuck to the T+C until this year.

 

Put CCA request through and they sent a 'true' copy. But it can't be true if there's no signed original right?

[don leocornay]

PS. I haven't written back regarding the final demand yet. Will send it off tomorrow

[don leocornay]

Update:

Letter has been sent (Recorded).

 

I rang to tell them that I'd sent a letter and they should be receiving it. Also that they should stop the action they're taking because of the legitimacy of the dispute.

 

Was very surprised to hear that they actually DID have the paperwork WITH my signature on it and they would send it to me in the post!

 

I warned them that because I never received or signed anything that if they do supply any documentation with my signature on it, I would identify it as a forgery and contact the police.

 

So it looks like HSBC want to add Fraud to the long list. Will be keeping an eye out for it and will update you.

[ScarletPimpernel]

HSBC's attitude doesn't surprise me in the least. I wrote omplaints to them in July and August, and they failed to respond. I mentioned both matters in another letter in October, and their response completely ignored all but one point. I phoned them, and the drone at the call centre told me they hadn't received the first two letters. I pointed out that not only had they been signed for, this would now make a total of six letters HSBC had signed for but denied recieving.

 

Lying seems to be a matter of company policy. In my other dispute with their credit card section, they wrote to me after I complained about an arbitrary reduction in credit limit to below the outstanding balance. In their first letter they claimed it was my fault and demanded repayment; in the second they claimed that they were correct, but that they would drop the repayment demand, but when my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) was received there was an entry clearly showing that this had not only been done on purpose, it was because of an error by one of their staff, and that they set out to lie to cover the error.

 

It strikes me that one of the reasons for their behaviour is that they are not used to being challenged. They've got away with their arrogance for so long they cannot come to terms with the need to behave properly.

[don leocornay]

Thanks Albertini,

 

I've moved it across now and had a couple of replys.

[don leocornay]

Friday has since passed and all I've received from HSBC is......wait for it.......a copy statement showing when the Managed Loan started. As usual they've completed messed up and it's further proof that they have absolutely nothing.

 

I'll have to contact them again, warning them that all court actions will be defended. This is starting to get boring! It's literally degrading to a Punch and Judy show:

 

"I didn't sign anything!"

"Oh, yes you did!"

"Oh, no I didn't!" and so on.................

 

Another letter to follow which will be forwarded to my solicitor. I was initially going to ask the court to take all payments and interest from the initial balance, which would result in me owing about 1,500 which I'd clear in a couple of months. But after 8months I don't care anymore. Now I just want a full refund (nearly 9k) plus damages for deliberately trying to flush my credit score down the toilet. They're stating on my credit file that I'm 5 months in arrears (the agency won't amend it) and as a result:

 

1/ Alliance and Leicester withdrew my credit card facility (£4,000 limit).

2/ I've been turned down for finance a number of times despite the fact that I'm full time employed and earning a good salary it all points to HSBC.

 

Sorry, I'm going on a bit but this is getting pathetic!

[hsbcfiddled]

Don, have i not read somewhere that you have not signed any agreement?

[don leocornay]

Could do with some help on this guys.

 

I've just spoken to a Solicitor, who's said that a Judge may use a 'Balance of Probability' to ascertain whether or not I signed the documentation.

 

Has anyone heard of this and should I be worried?

[42man]

Bear in mind that there is HIGHER court ruling from the Wilson case that basically stated that if there is no signed Consumer Credit Agreement, a debt is unenforceable.....I doubt if your solicitor knows of that case....

[42man]

Wilson v First County Trust

[don leocornay]

I didn't think so. I mentioned the same case to her today and I'll puit it forward to her again..

 

Thanks!

[42man]

A statement is NOT enough as Bluetack in his court case scanned and edited a statement with the judges name on it to prove that anybody can make a false looking statement...!!

[don leocornay]

So if this were to go to court (whether I pursue or they do), they would HAVE to provide the ORIGINAL documentation in order to get a judgement?

[don leocornay]

Also, who does the burden of proof lie with in this instance?

[42man]

I'm 99% sure that they have to be able to produce the original agreement in court....

[rory32]

I've just spoken to a Solicitor, who's said that a Judge may use a 'Balance of Probability' to ascertain whether or not I signed the documentation.

 

I would respectfully suggest that the solicitor actual reads The Consumer Credit Act 1974 under which any agreement would have been made. I would suggest section 127(3) would be a good starting point (It's under Part IX Judicial Control e.g. what a judge can and can't do).

 

I'm 99% sure that they have to be able to produce the original agreement in court....

I'm 100% certain, otherwise they can not demonstrate what you agreed to.

[rory32]

Here is a copy of the Act http://www.passprotect.studio400.me.uk/Consumer_Credit_Act_1974.PDF

 

The 2006 amendments and the other Acts that are tied into the Consumer Credit Act can be found in the Statutes Library.

[don leocornay]

Thanks Rory I thought the same thing.

 

I had a think about the whole balance of probability arguement.

 

Surely if the balance of probability states that it's more likely that I signed because of the length of time that passed, surely the same arguement means that HSBC should have the documentation stored and that if after 8months they haven't produced it, that it doesn't exist! After all they're still within the limits under which they have to keep the documents so they should know where they are.

 

I'm also wondering if this train of thought would hold any water because it's what happened:

they are supposed to be more financially knowledgable than me. Therefore, if they say 'You're bound and there's nothing you can do' (which they did), it's logical that I would take them at their word right?

 

Any takers?

 

PS. I chased them up on their promise and they said that it had been forwarded to the complaints team (again).

[don leocornay]

That's right. I didn't sign anything but they're still pursuing me for this.

[rory32]

They need to keep documents such as a copy of the agreement for 6 years after the closure of the account to comply with money laundering legislation. If they don't they commit a rather serious offence.

 

The law is very clear on this no credit agreement = no enforcement of the debt. The Consumer Credit Act was set up to protect consumers from sharp practices by creditors. The whole balance of probability arguement I'm afraid is complete bollarks in this instance. The solicitor simply hasn't ready the statute or case law.

 

EDIT: The point is not really about whether there is or was a debt, the point is whether it can lawfully be enforced. Without a copy of the agreement it can not be enforced.

[don leocornay]

Not sure what to do now.

 

They're threatening debt collectors but I'm sure the minute i mention CCA they'll give it back.

 

If they take me to court then they'll have to supply the original.

 

I guess they'll try and sneak a CCJ through so just make sure I defend anything they try?

[don leocornay]

Unless I put a proposal forward to negotiate but since they're insisting I signed an agreement then thet's unlikely