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    • Thanks London  if I’ve read correctly the questionaire wants me to post his actual name on a public forum… is that correct.  I’ve only had a quick read so far
    • Plenty of success stories, also bear in mind not everyone updates the forum.  Overdale's want you to roll over and pay, without using your enshrined legal right to defend. make you wet yourself in fear that a solicitor will Take you to court, so you will pay up without question. Most people do just that,  but you are lucky that you have found this place and can help you put together a good defence. You should get reading on some other Capital One and Overdale's cases on the forum to get an idea of how it works.  
    • In both versions the three references to "your clients" near the end need to be changed to "you" or "your" as Alliance are not using solicitors, they have sent the LoC themselves. Personally I'd change "Dear ALLIANCE PARKING Litigation Dept" to "Dear Kev".  It would show you'd done your homework, looked up the company, and seen it's a pathetic one-man band rather than having any departments.  The PPCs love to pretend they have some official power and so you should be scared of them - showing you've sussed their sordid games and you're confident about fighting them undermines all this.  In fact that's the whole point of a snotty letter - to show you'd be big trouble for them if they did do court so better to drop you like a hot potato and go and pursue mugs who just give in instead. In the very, very, very, very unlikely case of Kev doing court, it'd be better that he didn't know in advance all the legal arguments you'd be using, so I'd heavily reduce the number of cards being played.
    • Thanx Londoneill get on to it this evening having a read around these forums I can’t seem to find many success stories using your methods. So how successful are these methods or am I just buying time for him  and a ccj will be inevitable in the end. Thanks another question is, will he have to appear at court..? I am not sure he has got it in him
    • Here's a suggested modified version for consideration by the team. (Not sure whether it still gives too much away?)   RE: PCN 4xxxxx Dear ALLIANCE PARKING Litigation Dept, Thank you for your dubious Letter Of Claim (dated 29th April 2024) of £100 for just 2 minutes of overstay. The family rolled around on the floor in amazement of the idea you actually think they’d accept this nonsense, let alone being confused over the extra unlawful £70 you added. Shall we raise the related VAT issue with HMRC, or perhaps the custodians of the unicorn grain silos? Apart from the serious GDPR breach you’ve made with the DVLA and your complete failure in identifying the driver, we’re dumbfounded that the PCN is still not compliant with the PoFA (2012 Schedule 4 Under Section 9.2.f) even after 12 years of pathetic trial and error. We also doubt a judge would be very impressed at your bone idleness and lack of due diligence regarding parking periods. Especially with no consideration of section 13 in your own trade association's code of practice and the topological nature of the Cornish landscape versus a traditional multi-storey. And don’t even get us started on the invisible signage during the ultra busy bank holiday carnage, that is otherwise known as the random parking chaos in the several unmarked, unmanaged over-spill fields, or indeed the tedious “frustration of contract” attempting to get a data connection to Justpark.  We suggest your clients drop this extreme foolishness or get an absolute hammering in court. We are more than ready to raise the above issues and more, with a fair minded judge, who will most likely laugh your clients out in less time than it takes to capture a couple of useless ANPR photos. If you insist on continuing this stupid, money grabbing quest, after having all of the above pointed out, we will of course show this letter to the Judge and request “an unreasonable costs order” under CPR 27.14.2.g and put it toward future taxis to Harlyn Bay instead.  We all look forward to your clients' deafening silence. Signed, "Spot". (Vehicle Keeper's pet Dalmation).
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Don Leocornay Vs HSBC


don leocornay
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Hi Don,

Im also involved in CCA request for Managed Loan, and they have tried to fob me off with an unsigned cut and paste version with the starting amount of my loan on. Needless to say i sent a letter demanding a £0 balance as soon as the deadline ran out (this week). Please feel free to subscribe to my thread if you would like an idea of what will happen to you. I am in a very similar situation.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/89914-rhsymonds-hsbc-managed-loan.html

 

FYI, a Prelim is a letter you send asking nicely for your money back, and telling the bank what you will do if they dont play ball. The LBA is a Letter-Before-Action, where you tell them exactly what you plan to do and give them a specific deadline to comply before you start pursuing the matter through the courts. Templates are available in the forum.

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Thanks Rhys.

 

I'm drafting the prelim at the moment asking for my money back. I'm guessing I should fill it with lots of phrases like duty or care, negligent misrepresentation etc. All will be true statements, I'm not gonna make anything up here.

 

The bit that gets me is that they have the [EDIT] nerve to pull the 'destroyed by accident' line (twice!). I've sent a letter refuting this claim and I've told them that I'll state so in court if need be. I've already had advice from a solicitor about maybe getting a sworn statement but that can wait until court.

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Canny post is 2402 on "loan cannot etc". I will be subscribing to this thread also. Best of luck. My son had a business loan with HSBC (it's now with DG Solicitors/MCS whatever you want to call them!!!!!!) so I might just go for the throat.

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Here's a question. After I've sent the Prelim gets the thumbs down (I'm guessing they'll reject it) is it worth going down the court route or the ombudsman route?

 

Don - I have won claims both ways (FOS & COURT ROUTE)

 

With the FOS I didn't get interest (the 8% statutory) I just got the actual charges settled - it was easy to do this way. All I did was fill in the FOS complaint form off the website & print it out - I enclosed a list of the charges I was asking for and the letters I had sent to bank (pre lim & LBA) and the response from the Bank with their final word on matter (for some people there is a partial offer) - but FOS were really good and kept me updated at their various stages where they allocated case to the case worker etc.. and the offer from Bank as that arrived etc.. It was easy and as I hadn't a lot of interest to lose on that account it was fine for me and worked in a short time to end the matter. I think it took about 4 weeks in all with FOS.

 

Claims through MCOL/Courts vary from Bank to Bank as you'll read here -

different Banks use different tactics? So times will vary with claims? You need to consider whether there is a lot of interest to lose by going the FOS route as depending on what interest you have to lose if etc.. whether the MCOL or FOS is the route you go etc.. I am sure FOS won't / can't go after the interest for you it's the initial charges they can help you get back - I hope if I am wrong on that someone more experienced can point this out.

 

BUT - my own experience was either route are successful and time element were similar etc.. BUT both routes will get your money back.

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thanks elizabeth.

 

I spoke to the FOS yesterday and they said if I sent a complaint through to them they'd look into it and take my history into account. now i've missed a few payments (but always caught up) and had the odd occasion where i went over my limit. will this hurt my case?

 

also, with the loan, i want to claim back all payments plus the interest they've applied to the account. is all of this subject to the 8% stat interest rate?

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thanks elizabeth.

 

I spoke to the FOS yesterday and they said if I sent a complaint through to them they'd look into it and take my history into account. now i've missed a few payments (but always caught up) and had the odd occasion where i went over my limit. will this hurt my case?

 

also, with the loan, i want to claim back all payments plus the interest they've applied to the account. is all of this subject to the 8% stat interest rate?

 

The spread sheets are in the Template library for working out the charges & interest - they automatically calculate this for you etc..

 

If you do want the 8% interest then court is the option / route to take.

 

A few missed repayments will not have any bearings on your case/claim either route - I am sure the best of us can "mis calculate" the funds available in out accounts at any given time - don't worry about that we can all make mistakes? Good Luck :)

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lil progress report for you guys.

 

I previously mentioned that HSBC had the gall to claim that my documentation got lost. Well following my swift reply, HSBC promptly back down and make the following statement:

 

'I am unable to attain as to whether paperwork of this nature was documented at the time' and 'that any such files would not have been kept at the branch for record keeping'

 

This was followed by a bit of grovelling and a 'we're treating this as a complaint' statement.

 

Makes my case stronger at least. Should this go to court, there'll be no doubt that no documentation ever existed meaning they've contravened the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2004.

 

Almost there!

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Hello, I've finally got off my [EDIT] butt and drafted a letter. Could someone have a look and see there are any holes that need filling?

 

Thanks!!!

 

To Whom It May Concern:

 

Re: Satisfactory resolution of Managed Loan required. Sort code XX-XX-XX

Account number XXXXXXXX

 

I am writing in conjunction to the above loan agreement set up in September 2004.

 

I no longer acknowledge this debt and based on the information below, you will see why this is the case.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974, of which subsection section 77 subsection 1 states:

 

The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit,…….shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement

 

This raised my suspicion, because I had never signed any kind of documentation for this agreement. Reading further, subsection 4 states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

As a result of this, I sent a letter dated 28th of March requesting a certified true copy of the Signed Service agreement for the loan. The request needed to be satisfied within 12 working days otherwise the Loan is in default. However, I received no response at this time. The bank still took its payment via direct debit if £157. However, this was reversed after a (lengthy) phonecall.

 

On ____ and ____ I received letters from XXXX, my branch manager, stating that further to my request they were unable to locate my documents. That there was a refurbishment in July 2006 and that a number of docs were "destroyed due to condensation". This statement shocked me because (as I previously mentioned) I never signed any documentation for this agreement. However, I have since received a reply from XXXX stating that this was a misunderstanding.

 

On the 20th of May the 30 day deadline passed, which means that HSBC have now broken the law under the CCA 1974 and that the debt is no longer enforceable. As a result, I have take measures to ensure that HSBC are not able to enforce this payment. By doing this I am also taking measures that ensure that you do not break the law

 

I have also obtained a copy of my credit report and find no entries regarding any of my credit card, overdraft or Graduate Loan. Therefore there couldn’t have been any problems that would have warranted you taking me to court. Which asks they question, “Why did I receive the repeated phone calls?”

 

Regarding the loan, this is my financial situation.

 

Amount paid to date £8,382.44

Amount left to pay £8,379.66

 

If I had been allowed to continue under my previous agreement, then my graduate loan would have been paid off and I can say with confidence that my credit card would have been within it’s limit (it isn’t feasible to say that it would have been fully paid off) but I would be making no further payments to you after paying £8550.40. I am clearly a lot worse of than before I was bullied into the managed loan.

 

It is my conclusion that HSBC have abused their duty of care to me as a customer in order to make extra profit. They have done so in a number of ways. Namely:

 

  • HARRASSMENT – Based on the numerous telephone calls from your outbound sales team chasing payment of my credit card for over 12 months. Battering me into submission.
  • NEGLIGENT MISREPRESENTATION - By not giving me the full terms of the agreement, therefore not allowing me a 2 week cooling off period to now (subject to the Distance Selling of Financial Services Act and _____).
  • MIS-SELLING of financial services to me. The Managed Loan was NOT the best plan of action for me in this circumstance and has left me much worse off financially to the tune of over 8k.
  • IMPROPER EXECUTION – by not supply full terms and conditions and not receiving a signed copy that states that I agree to them. Thereby not allowing me a 2 week ‘cooling off’ period
  • FRAUDULENT MISREPRESENTATION - by lying about the existence of a signed agreement when one was never signed
  • BREAKING THE LAW UNDER CCA 1974 – By enforcing a loan that is no longer enforceable under the CCA 1974 s77,you are willingly breaking the law.
  • BREAKING THE OFT GUIDELINES TO DEBT COLLECTION

 

I now seek a satisfactory resolution to this situation; otherwise I shall have no choice but to report you to the following bodies:

 

  • FSA
  • OFT
  • Trading Standard
  • Banking Ombudsman.

I also have no qualms in going to the press and my local MP regarding the Managed Loan which could bring the practise of providing a Managed Loan into question. I am confident that all complaints will be upheld, which could greatly affect HSBC’s fitness to hold a credit licence.

 

Also, I will have no choice but to take legal action in order to repair the damage you’ve caused to me as being under this agreement has had an adverse affect on my credit score. I have every confidence that a Judge, upon learning that you did not properly execute the agreement and have tried to enforce is contrary to the CCA 1974, will find in my favour and not only award me my ML instalments (and the interest applied) but also substantial damages for the emotional distress you have caused me (you may or may not be aware of the case of Alison Turner Vs Halifax, which was recently settled out of court).

 

I’m sure you wouldn’t like this to happen therefore I await your reply within the next 14 day on this matter before taking the next step.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Yours Truly :-)

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Don - this looks fine to me - but I had another thought you could mention that as there is no CCA etc.. Data being recorded is inaccurate with CRA's etc.. and there is room to report them to ICO too?

 

What I am thinking is they'll be writing to the Credit Reference Agencies and recording the wrong data on your credit files too?

 

This is just a thought though - what you have written is very good - just wondered whether the issues about what they are recoprding with the CRA's is worth tackling too?

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thanks elizabeth,

 

it's always good to have more ammo. i ran this by another person who suggested bringing the tone down a bit. They said I sounded too cocky.

 

Any thoughts. I guess I have to word it like the previously young and naive transformed to older and more knowledgable person and looking for justice................

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I don't see how this is "cocky" - if you have written the facts and asking for answers - there isn't anything cocky? Hopefully someone else may think differently and offer their thoughts?

 

From what I read - you had problems and were bullied into a different loan etc.. etc.. - you are now looking for answers? I would go to the authorities if you don't get any answers to resolve this.

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i sent a letter demanding a £0 balance as soon as the deadline to provide CCA ran out

 

Well, the deadline i gave them (14 days) expired today and i just checked online banking,

AND THE MANAGED LOAN ACCOUNT ISNT THERE ANYMORE ?!?!?!?

 

I still have an isa which i can view on internet banking so i know its working, but the managaed loan account is defnitely missing (along with my current account which they sent me a letter to say they had closed after refunding my current account charges)

 

I have not received anything official saying this would happen, nor am i aware when it dissapeared, i just know i told them to cancel the debt, and its gone.

 

Never thought that would happen at all,

 

Hows your fight going DonLeo ?

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hi rhsymonds.

 

Still tweaking this letter (see previous post). Getting some great info from elizabeth1.

 

Just a quick update, I transferred all my remaining funds into my parachute account. They STILL tried to enforce the loan. It bounced and I got charged £25 again. Never mind, it'll all be given back.

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Still tweaking this letter

 

Id say stop tweaking and send it dude, My letter was literally one paragragh saying cancel the debt within 14 days or 'im telling' !!

 

Et' Voila, The debt is gone (please god let it be gone, lol)

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Id say stop tweaking and send it dude, My letter was literally one paragragh saying cancel the debt within 14 days or 'im telling' !!

 

Et' Voila, The debt is gone (please god let it be gone, lol)

 

dometimes that's the best way - entering into long correspondences with these companies just gives them more time and room to manouvre?

good luck!!

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Lol, i spoke too soon, a letter arrived from Metropolitan today 'demanding full and immediate payment' of the outstanding amount.

 

Should have known really, it was never gonna be that easy.

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  • 3 weeks later...

hey,

 

been underground for a while but here's an update:

 

HSBC did come back (after the 1 month deadline) with a 'true copy' of the agreement, claiming that since I'd been paying the loan that I'd agreed to all terms and that the loan was still enforceable.

 

I spoke to the national debtline who told me that under s77-79 of the CCA they had complied. However, under s60-66 they they didn't have a leg to stand on as ALL unsigned credit agreements are not properly executed and are therefore unenforceable. If they wanted to, they'd have to take me to court and there's been no judgement yet that has gone in the creditors favour.

 

Happy days, letter's in the post. Next stop, compensation (fingers crossed)

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  • 2 weeks later...

FYI. This was the letter I sent last week:

 

Dear XXXX ,

Re: XXXXXXXX/XX Managed Loan

Thank you for your letter dated 13th of June.

Although you have provided a ‘true copy’ of the agreement, no signed copy of the agreement is available.

1.1 Section 61 (1) (a) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner

As I have previously mentioned, I never received ANY documentation for this agreement and, as a result, have never signed anything. My initial letter dated 28th March requesting signed documentation was not answered as per my request. In fact I even have a letter dated 17th May, 2007 from XXX XXXXXXXX – My Branch Manager – stating:

‘I am unable to attain as to whether paperwork of this nature was documented at the time’

The fact that you have not been able to supply the paperwork requested confirms that no such paperwork exists and, as a result, the agreement was improperly executed.

1.2 Section 65 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

(1) An improperly-executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the

debtor or hirer on an order of the court only.

(2) A retaking of goods or land to which a regulated agreement relates is an

enforcement of the agreement.

As you have been taking installments from my account, as you previously mentioned, you have been enforcing an improperly executed agreement without the permission of the court.

1.3 However, Section 127 (3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether

or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1))

itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or

hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

Because the agreement was never signed, you are not able to enforce this agreement through the courts. The loan is completely unenforceable, which means you are committing an offence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

1.4 The Managed Loan situation is as follows:

Money paid to date £4,710.00

Interest applied £3,565.44

Money left to pay £8,585.44

I am clearly a lot worse off than before the Loan consolidation was applied by over £8,000.

1.5 I now seek a satisfactory conclusion to this matter and will be forwarding copies of this letter to the FSA, OFT, Trading Standards, Banking Ombudsman and my MP. I believe my complaint will be upheld as you did not properly execute the agreement subject to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. For almost three years, you have enforced this agreement despite there being no signed agreement.

I would like you to respond promptly to my complaint, starting with the immediate cessation of the recovery of payments (i.e my Standing Order) and the application of interest.

If you do not, I will have no choice but to take legal action to recover Managed Loan installments, Interest applied as well as damages for emotional distress.

After 14 days I will pursue satisfaction through the courts if I do not receive a satisfactory response.

I await your reply.

Yours sincerely,

Don Leocornay

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Just keeping you guys in the loop.

 

I stopped all payments to this account last month. One repayment they paid back and the other two have bounced (got charged each time but that's a separate battle!). I also got a debt chase letter from Customer Credit Services threatening to blacken my credit score etc so I've sent this reply:

 

Thank you for your letter dated 4th of July.

The payment of XXX has not been made because there is an ongoing dispute regarding the Managed Loan.

I am not in breach of the ‘credit agreement’ because the Managed Loan is unenforceable. You have received correspondence dated 29th of June confirming the grounds of this. Please refer to this letter or contact (Name Withheld) in customer services and she will inform you of the current situation.

Because of this outstanding complaint, I suggest that you do not take ANY of the steps you have threatened me with. Doing so means that you are committing and offence under Section 65 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I hope this clarifies my position with regards to the above account

Yours Sincerely

 

Don

 

Copy sent to (Name Withheld) too.

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I also got a holding letter following the letter in post 21. Basically saying that they'll look into it. I sent this response to let them know I'm not messing around:

 

Dear XXXX,

Thank you for your holding letter dated 5th of July,

Since I receive dthis letter on Friday the 6th of July, I’m happy to let the 14 day deadline mentioned in my previous letter start from that day. This means that you now have until Friday the 20th of July to resolve this matter. I think that, considering that my initial query was made in February that this is more than enough time for you to complete any necessary investigations you have.

Any further delay would confirm that the bank is unwilling to co-operate to resolve this matter.

Please find enclosed a copy of the recent chase letter from HSBC Customer Credit Services along with my reply.

I look forward to a prompt response and a satisfactory conclusion to this matter.

Yours Sincerely

Don

Keep your fingers crossed guys!!!

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Got a letter back from HSBC today. In summary it says:

 

- We don't have to send anything other than the copy sent previously.

 

- You've been making payments to this agreement.

 

- We have nothing further to add

 

- We're happy to go to the Ombudsman.

 

Any advice on this please? I need to get another letter out asap.

 

Thanks!

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Ive had a fairly similar letter from hsbc, saying that the unsigned agreement they sent me is sufficient, and it is the best evidence they hold. When i informed them that the debt is un-enforceable without a signed agreement, they said ' we have spoken with our legal team, and see no reason to supply you with this document'.

 

I think you are probably a letter or 2 in front of me Donleo, ive got everything crossed for you.

 

:D

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