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    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Access issue with Brittany Ferries


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CEO Brittany Ferries

 

Mt Christophe Mathieu

 

Brittany Ferries

Millbay

Plymouth

PL1 3EW

 

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It seems to me that Brittany Ferries are assisting you all they can but the loading crew seem to ignore requests from management. Unfortunately, with the Bretagne being the oldest of the fleet (1989), there's not much they can do regarding easier access. Some of these powered wheelchairs are rather large which makes it difficult to access the ship compared to a standard chair. Fingers crossed when the new ship comes into service and vessels moved around, you may get Pont-Aven to St Malo.

 

Perhaps someone else could drive on board for you and you used the foot passenger route to board the ship?

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It seems to me that Brittany Ferries are assisting you all they can but the loading crew seem to ignore requests from management. Unfortunately, with the Bretagne being the oldest of the fleet (1989), there's not much they can do regarding easier access. Some of these powered wheelchairs are rather large which makes it difficult to access the ship compared to a standard chair. Fingers crossed when the new ship comes into service and vessels moved around, you may get Pont-Aven to St Malo.

 

Perhaps someone else could drive on board for you and you used the foot passenger route to board the ship?

 

Brittany Ferries are most certainly not assisting as much as they can, and the issue is not with my wheelchair, which is actually smaller than a manual chair. If we're parked by the accessible lift, there's no problem, it's actually one of the better ships for access, but we shouldn't be having to argue with the loading crew every time before they (usually) park us there. All Brittany Ferries have to do is tell the loading crew that the needs of passengers must come before their convenience and that would be the end of it, but they simply won't do that. Quite apart from any other issue, expecting anything on wheels to navigate a tight turn in narrow corridors at the head of a staircase is inviting an accident. I doubt it's coincidence that when travelling from France to the UK so that loading is from the opposite direction, all assistance vehicles are automatically parked by the 'safe' lift.

 

We used Pont Aven a couple of times last winter whilst she was covering this route. On both occasions the loading crew parked all the disabled vehicles in a long line between two lifts, one of which was out of order, waited until we'd all left the car deck and then parked all the other vehicles so close around that no one could get back to their vehicle the next morning. Another passenger posted a review on Tripadvisor which described the loading crew directing traffic around my wheelchair rather than wait 30 seconds for me to get out of the way, so no, I don't hope we get Pont Aven.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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I usually use Brittany Ferries when I go on a booze cruise (usually one per year) and I can say that the loaders pack everyone in the loading decks as tightly as possible so for someone in any form of wheelchair, this presents problems. There's usually only room for a single file of people so how can a wheelchair move along the row unless a disabled car is placed at the most accessible place which would obviously mean that they are placed nearest the disabled access.

 

 

The thing is, before loading, traffic is directed to a waiting area and form up in little neat lines. what is the problem with having a dedicated line for disabled travellers? Once some vehicles have been given permission to drive on board, stop other traffic and let the disabled drive on which would put them nearest the access they need. Not rocket science is it?

 

 

 

Having said that, I have found the staff on board generally pleasant although I have rarely spoken to the loading crew. Having read your tale of woe, I would have ended up arrested for physical violence. I can't stand poor performance!

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Absolutely, the point is that it is possible or we would never have been parked by an accessible lift. We and everyone else admit it's more difficult to park a specific vehicle in a specific place, which is why the loading crew don't like it. One argument is that it might hold up departure - we were arguing for at least 15 minutes last time during which loading on that deck came to a complete halt. The ship still left 5 minutes early. If they'd just done what they should in the first place, it would have been at least 15 minutes early.

 

Unfortunately for Brittany Ferries I have official opinion that making travel on my chosen route this difficult amounts to refusing to carry me on that route and the only get out clause for that breach of the EU regs (similar to the ones for airlines about assistance etc) is that it is impossible, not just difficult or inconvenient, and since it has been done before obviously it's not impossible.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Just been contacted by my local paper. Disabled access on public transport is apparently big news at the moment and something other than being stranded on trains or planes seems to be attracting attention. I don't think it'll be on the front page, but hopefully some of the nationals will pick it up as well.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Our tweeting seems to have had an effect :wink:

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Brittany Ferries' legal department have contacted me - late on a Friday afternoon, again. In fact, 26 minutes before their time limit ran out.

 

At first glance it appeared to be a win, at second glance there are still a few issues, not least that we suspect that option 2 (drop me off at the accessible lift, go back to pick me up when we arrive) or option 3 (park us by the inaccessible lift, offer the onboard chair to get me to the passenger decks) will actually become the default option rather than option 1, which is of course to park us by the accessible lift.

 

From experience, even if they genuinely believe the loading crew will somehow now magically do as they are told, it won't last. We'll maybe get one or even possibly two crossings where there's no arguments and everything goes smoothly, then we'll be back to square one and all this hassle will have been completely pointless. I almost wish they hadn't contacted us as I would have then been able to go to ABTA and any solution from there would have had to be permanent.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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From experience, even if they genuinely believe the loading crew will somehow now magically do as they are told, it won't last. We'll maybe get one or even possibly two crossings where there's no arguments and everything goes smoothly, then we'll be back to square one and all this hassle will have been completely pointless. I almost wish they hadn't contacted us as I would have then been able to go to ABTA and any solution from there would have had to be permanent.

 

Except, when it fails, it shows they could (and initially, did!) make “reasonable adjustments”, and (though they weren’t ideal!) you were reasonable in trying to make them work.

You record events each time going forward, and when they fall back on their old ways you show you trying to use a reasonable adjustment, and them failing to deliver it in practice.

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