Hello everyone,

as i am new to this site please be patient with me,

im facing a disciplinary hearing in work soon.

The allegation is gross misconduct being more specific damage to the work urinals,

work have shown me still images of people entering the toilet including myself within a timescale via the corridor cctv,

and have provided an unsigned witness statment who states that they heard the damage actually happen,

in the first witness statement it states that the first person in was in there for only an extremely brief time,

this has been proven by the images as 7 seconds,

then described on the statement a second a few minutes later entered and caused the damage,

this has been timed as 3 mins 55 seconds,

then i enter some 15 minutes after the first person left,

the witness then states that after 20 minutes in the loo they left and told manager,

passing the last person to enter without telling them any thing,

now the informant and the last person where in there for 12 secs together without talking,

then at the end of the statement it states that the damage happened just before the informent left,

so meaning me,

when it states that he said at the start of the statement that the second person a few minutes later caused the damage,

i gave my side of the story then my manager said he will have to arrange another investigatory meeting ,

meeting with the informant again and also the last person to enter,

he never interviewed the last person only this informant who clearly states on the second again unsigned statement that it happened just before i left,

in the managers e mail about this second statement he states that he found this meeting useful.

now the first statement was taken 16 days after the alleged event and the second statement 30 days after the allegation

and more importantly the second statement was when i was suspended

i stated that most know about my suspension so that the informent must know as well and therefore this statment is tarnished and completely different to the first,

my manager did not listen and has found me guilty ,

so the next step is this disciplinary hearing,

it has to be mentioned that the first manager is my own and does not have great feelings for me because im on restrictive duties he finds me a hinderence to his shift,

i have reasons for this as well, so thanks and please give me some advice..................

..............

Thread moved to Employment Forum

did you do it?

dx

dx

:sad:no did not do it . just used the urinals and left. thanks

Having a bit of a problem unscrambling the sequence of events, perhaps you could clarify.

The first prospective culprit went in, stayed 7 seconds then came back out. Would it be fair to assume that he did not do the damage as he had little time to do anything much?

The second prospective culprit went in, stayed just short of 4 minutes and then came back out. Would it be fair to say that he had plenty of time to cause the damage?

The third prospective culprit went in, that was you. You went in some 15 minutes after the first prospective culprit left, and presumably the second prospective culprit had left as well by then.

You do not specify the length of time you spent in there, or if you noticed anything amiss, or anyone else in there. If the urinals were damaged, would you not have noticed?

The fourth prospective culprit went in after you had come out, how long after? How long was he in for? Did he notice anything amiss, or any damage? Did he report anything?

Would it be correct to conclude from what you say that the witness who wrote the statement had been in the toilet for about 20 minutes and that this 20 minutes covered the time period in which prospective culprits 1, 2 and 3 came and went, and prospective culprit 4 was still in there when he left? Would he have been perhaps in one of the toilet cubicles? Would anyone wishing to cause damage not have made sure that nobody was around to witness his actions? Would he not have noticed that there was a potential witness in there?

From what you appear to be saying the same witness wrote two statements. In the first he says that prospective culprit 2 caused the damage and in his second statement he is saying that prospective culprit 3, you, did it. Is there any reason why his second statement should be believed and not his first?

Is there any reason why prospective culprit 4 and the witness who wrote the statements should conspire against you? Could, for example, the witness be too scared of prospective culprit 4 to implicate him?

Hello, to clarify, informant in at 11.30.03 out at 11.50.11. 1st culprit in at 11.31.51. Out at 11.31.58 so 7 seconds, 2nd culprit in 11.35.13. Out 11.35.43, so 30 seconds, 3rd culprit me in at 11.46.36 out at 11.47.09, so 33 seconds, culprit 4 in at 11.49.55 out dont know not told, informant out at 11.50.11 so 20 minutes inside toilet. When i entered i never saw anything or heard anything, just used the urinals and left.the first informant statement taken before i was suspended and taken 16 days after the allegation states in it that the second person described as a few minutes later caused the damage, this is timed at 3.55 after culprit 1 left.it states thatwitness heard damage for between 8 -10 seconds kicking sounds. Two urinals damaged as stated in photograph taken after event, but they are only investigating one urinal damage because the informant stated that he only saw one urinal leaking but on his second statement remembers about the othe oneas well. Other toilet damage has recently happened as well including bodily fluids being put on the walls of both m and f toilets. When i enquired about this i was told that all attempts had been undertaken but these proved to be futile. This being after we all had a letter from the operations director stating that there are ways of finding who this person are, but no action was taken the first witness statementstates that the 2nd culprit done it and at the end also states that this happened 2 mins before informant left meaning me, i stated that this ending sentence stating this two minute timescale does not seem to be in keeping with the rest of the statement, ie i think its been added. The manager said he would talk to culprit 4 and informant again culprit 4 never spoke to , informant spoke to again 30 days after allegation. Infornant said in the 1st statement that 1 or 2 people entered , the second statement that positively 2 or 3 entered but the damage definately happened 2 mins beforew he left, meaning me. This second statement was again unsigned. Also stated on the second statement that he saw the damage to the other urinal but never mentioned this the first time around. Finally culprit 4 entered 16 seconds before informant left, i asked why informant never mentioned this to culprit 4, why did culprit4 not mention about any damage, many thanks any advice before i see my solicitor and the disciplinary hearing , finally the manager mentioned his resonable belief for his reason

Thanks for the clarification.

This stinks (pardon the pun). The witness who made the statement was in there for over 20 minutes. If you exclude the time prospective culprits 1, 2, 3 and 4 were in there he would have been in there on his own for a total of 18.5 minutes approximately.

I think it sounds more than a bit strange that anyone intent on causing damage would not have checked to ensure that there were no witnesses before he started causing the damage.

I think it also sounds more than a bit strange that the so-called witness did not call out or come out when he heard the din, and that having noticed the damage as he was leaving he did not mention anything about what he had heard and what he was seeing to the only other person in there (prospective culprit 4).

It sounds to me like the witness who made the statements is making them up, that he is trying to drop you in it (pardon the pun) to deflect suspicion from himself.

Perhaps you might think of some reason why the manager should take his word for it rather than yours, because, based on what you have said so far about his statements, I can’t see why he should be believed.

If I were manager I would also be questioning why he spends so much time in there. It is also peculiar that he did not bother washing his hands but went straight out. Could it be that he was not using the toilet for its intended purpose, or was he in such a hurry to get out because he did not want to be confronted and possibly quizzed about the damage by prospective culprit 4 who had just come in? Seems like very furtive behaviour to me.

You say that toilets have been damaged again since the incident in question and despite claims that the culprits of those incidents can be discovered no action is being taken. Would I be right in assuming that if they had any evidence that could link those incidents to you they would link them to you? Can the ‘witness’ account for his movements when those other incidents occurred? I would be demanding that his toilet breaks were totted up to see if there is a possible link.

Hello, the damage to other toilets happened before this incident, but after this event blood was smeared onto walls of toilets, on another shift, i asked about this and was again brushed aside with the fact that all incidents are fully investigated, the informants first statement states that he did wash his hands, the manager finds me a hinderence to his shift due to my restrictive abilities, before september all was fine in work, september i was sent home unpaid 5 times due to no work being available for me. Now i stated that 3 out of the 5 times i was sent home i had been doing that job before september with no issue, i was then told that because it was not on my work physio assessment due only to a clerical error that i was not allowed on this task yet before september was allowed on it, then they being manager said that the crewing had been cut back so i would not be able to rotate on that role which is untrue, other incidents have happened this year including him telling me that i will never be trained the way you are. Meaning because of my restrictions im useless, finally i have never been sat down and signed anthing to agree to these deductions from my pay. Lastly i questioning the actual statements if they are not signed then does this mean that they being the informant does not exist?.................................. Thanks

Hi

This does stink the best you can do know is get your defence to this sorted.

1. The Witness Statement are un-signed therefore these statements are no better than hearsay. (If these were actually true statement then why have the witnesses not signed them and who actually has written these statements?). Please remember with this not to inform employer as this gives them the opportunity to correct the mistake you are now defending yourself.

2. Why did it take 16 days to get a witness statement (were they off work on holiday etc i would ask for clarification as this should really have been done that day or then next day)

3. Their is actually no physical evidence that you carried out this damage only hearsay and the cctv outside the toilet in corridor only shows who entered and exited toilet. (as they are using this cctv footage as evidence request copies of that cctv footage).

4. Why has the informant not been questioned properly as he had the most opportunity to cause this damage then realise there mistake and who had came and went from toilet so they could have blamed anyone that entered and exited during this time in toilet to cover their tracks.

5. You need to get copies of there disciplinary & grievance procedures, staff handbook (if one issued), witness statements, cctv footage.

Has the company also explained to you your rights to be accompanied at the meeting by either a union rep or work colleague as this is a Gross Misconduct hearing.

Please also have a look at the ACAS website IMHO this really stinks.

thanks for response, i thimk its all a set up any advice before i see my solicitor thanks

Hi

also have a look at ACAS website heres the link:

www.acas.org.uk

HELLO ALL, HAD DISCIPLINARY HEARING, MEETING ADJOURNED SO I CAN PRESENT CASE I MORE DETAILED ORDERED FASHION. THEY BEING WORK ARE STILL GOING WITH IMFORMANT STATEMENT AND ARE STATING THE VERY LAST SENTENCE OF THE FIRST STATEMENT ALONG WITH THE CCTV FOOTAGE WHICH SHOWS ME ENTER AND EXIT ONLY, I WILL WORD THE STATMENT FOR ALL TO SEE AND ADVISE BEFORE I GO BACK TO SEEK MORE LEGAL ADVICE, I WILL PRESENT TWO STATMENTS. QUOTE 1ST STATEMENT SENT VIA EMAIL 16 DAYS AFTER EVENT................ to the best of my ability i will be as acurate as possible as it was over 2 weeks now, i recall being in the furthest or end wall cubicle, during my time i was in the lavatory i think only 2 people, or the same person came in whilst i was there.the first appeared to only be in there for an extremely brief time, as if they didnt use the facilities at all. the second a few minutes later, who by the sounds of it , used the urinals in a normal fashion, then based on the noise i heard, proceeded to violently kick something, repeatedly for about 8 to 10 secs, which sounded hollow or wooden, and not masonry. i was immediately alarmed as it was very loud and gave me quite a shock. my first thought was why were the cubicles not moving or responding to the kicks or blows being showered upon them,and in an instant realised the blows must be directed at something else,...but i couldnt imagine what. i didnt quickly picture any other area so close that could sound like what i was hearing. the person then left without pausing to wash hands. i completed my visit to the cubicle and came out expecting to find immediate signs of vandalism or destruction to something, but i didnt see anything right away.it was only when i looked further around that i spotted the centre urinal leaking quite heavily from the u-bend water trap, now finally explaining the results of the kicking.tell tale witness marks had been left, by a black object/boot sole, on the water trap and the kicks had clearly followed through to the wood paneled false wall behind the urinals, explaining the hollow noise.after staring in disbelief at the actions of totally unnecessary destruction for a short period, i washed my hands and left passing CULPRIT D MY WORDINGS EVERYONE CANT MENTION NAMES on the way out. i didnt pause to mention the above to CULPRIT, but went to inform the shift manager.the time between the person in question leaving the toilets and me leaving the cubicle was approx.2 mins. THATS THE STATEMENT. BECAUSE WORK SAY THE CCTV MATCHES THE VERY LAST SENTENCE THEN THATS IT, IVE ARGUED ABOUT THE FIRST SECTION OF THE STATEMENT TO NO AVAIL, SO BEFORE I PUT THE SECOND STATEMENT ON WHICH THEY ARE NOT USING BECAUSE THEY NOW CHOSE TO GO ALONG WITH THE FIRST STATEMENT BUT IN THE INVESTIGATORY MEETINGS TWO OF THEM CHOSE TO BELIEVE THE SECOND STATEMENT, ADVISE PLEASE , ALL TIMES ARE MENTIONE IN EARLIER POSTS THANKS .........................................

can anyone tell me why work are more interested than the last sentence of the statement ?, rather than concentrate on the first paragraph when it clearly states that the event happened early ? ...........................................

Hi

Have they explained why these statements are unsigned and taken 16 days after said incident?

no these are my questions for them before the disciplinary meeting starts again

Hi

Also have you requested that these witness who have made the statements as they are employees are present so that you may question them as you are entitled too.

Also has it been explained to you that you have the right to have either a Union representative or work colleague with you at these meeting?

they are deciding to keep all witness identity secret from me, yes i am represented. what i want to know is why are they not listening to the start of the statement ?? instead they are remaining with the very last sentence thanks...................

No one hgot any more advice before i meet with my solicitor??????????????. Thanks.

Hello all, after my second disciplinary hearing i had the result today. Yes the manager never took any notice and sacked me today, i will now appeal , advice by all welcome

Hi

they should have explained your reasons for dismissal at the hearing and your right to appeal and they will forward this in writing to you. (If possible it may be useful when you get the letter to scan and put on forum minus personal details).

I still think this stinks, they refused you permission to question the witnesses and kept them secret. (Do you have it in writing that they refused this request)

Also if they are keeping the witnesses secret who actually wrote these witness statement. (did the statements have the employees name on them).

hello, all that was said was that i done the act based on the anonymous witness, he heard noises and said it happened within the last few mins, so based on that they decicded to terminate my employment, also stated by manager that i had repeatedly failed to take responsibilityfor my actions and tried to blame others. yes they did tell me about appeal hearing, i asked why the witness remained secret and was told that he asked to remain anonymous, thats it . no have not got it in writing. and no the name of witness blanked out in emailed statement, the other talks with informant are just that they are only verbal between manager and witness, many thanks is this unfair dismissal?, if i dont get anywhere with the appeal then next step is tribunal do you all agree

Hi

Please please look at the ACAS Website and even give then a call.

Point out to them:

1. The company stated that you done the act based on the anonymous witness statement that was an unsigned email.

2. The company refused you the opportunity to question any witnesses on the basis that they want to remain anonymous. (Could it not be that the person wants to remain anonymous because they actually caused the damage).

I would not agree that the next stage is triburnal you would have to go through the appeals procedure beforehand then triburnal.

Also have you checked the companies Disciplinary & Grievance policy to see what it states about witnesses remaining anonymous?

(If there is nothing in that i would be asking the company for a copy of the policy/procedure that refers to witnesses).

Hello again. Could anyone offer me advice on how to defend myself for the appeal hearing against my summary dismissal,all that was said in the disciplinary hearing was that i had no mitigating circumstances. All i done was use the urinal no more, i need to try to overturn this decision so any help please. Also if i loose the appeal then have i got a case for unfair dismissal? Thanks

Hi

Calm down and stop panicing we are trying to help you!!!!!

Please answer the questions being asked as there is a valid reason for those questions so a proper picture of your circumsatnces can be made to give you the best advice.

Hello,in answer to your questions, yes they did explain the reason for dismissal and that was damage to company property under gross misconduct and i did have the right to appeal and this will be in writing.

I did ask why the witness remained annonymous and was told that he wishes for it to remain that way and that it is signed.

I think they meanthat the signature from informant is about his wanting to remain annonymous not the actual statement.

The e mailed statement sent some 16 days after event was questioned by me and the response was that they being the manager was happy with the timescale. The e mailed statement didi have the informants details on but my copy had been blanked out these details or so they said.

I have checked my disciplinary policy and no mention about any witnesses on there.

So in my summary dismissal work have relied on an annonymous statement that the informant stated he heard damage around 2 mins before i left the toilets and that the cctv showed me exit around this time.the last person to enter never interviewed because work said damage already done. But this last person never reported this to management, so i have been sacked on the basis of an annonymous witness.

How do i approach the appeal process because just before he told told me i was dismissed he stated that i had constantly from the start blamed others and that i put in no mitigating circumstances. So all advice welcome