Disciplinary Work Hearing

[keilidh king]

Hello all, i see many viewings but not much advice about my situation and my appeal hearing, all advice welcome,

[Sidewinder]

Hello all, i see many viewings but not much advice about my situation and my appeal hearing, all advice welcome,

 

Simple fact is that the employer has believed a witness over and above your own version of events, so your appeal can only be on the basis that it was not you who caused the damage, the damage was not present when you left the room, so it must have been caused after you left. You mention in your OP that you are on restricted duties - why is this, and what acts have occurred previously which make you believe that your dismissal might be due to you being a hinderance?

 

If your restricted duties are due to a disability, or a work related incident, then it might add weight to a claim for Unfair Dismissal. I certainly think that any appeal that you have needs to be firmly put forward that you did not do it, would never do it, believe that the allegation is malicious and the employer has not fully sought to establish whether this is the case, the allegation and subsequent disciplinary action are due to you being on restricted duties and that you fully intend to take legal action if your appeal is not upheld.

 

Unfortunately you do not have an automatic right to be able to know who the witnesses or accusors are, but in those cases the employer should use such evidence to corroborate other factors, so I think that whist you cannot challenge the dismissal purely on the basis of not knowing who has made the statements, it should be mentioned that in denying this information the employer has removed much of your ability to challenge the evidence against you.

[keilidh king]

hello all, thanks for replies,

appeal hearing soon, i will see my legal advisor before then. during the year 2011 i was sent home unpaid because i could not undertake all duties due to my medical ability, i was unpaid for these events, no meeting about why i would be sent home or letter, my contract states 42hr per wk, so as i see it this was breach of my contract so this current event leads me to believe that the above situation was taken into account as well. Also i now know who the witness informant is, he has admitted this to my work friend and states that he was constantly asked to provide a statement by work and done so under pressure, but he said he is not willing to provide a statement saying this for fear of his own job, this witness was not named but his department was during my disciplinary meetings by myself because i had a good idea who it was in the end. this person around this time was made to change shifts due to an alteration in his department and i stated that this person worked in this department had good reason to cause the damage due to changing shifts and loosing close work mates, this was not even considered before my dismissal, yet now proves that i was correct in the witness being that of one who had reason .

do you think i have a right to ask for this person to now be present for my appeal??????????????

all advice welcome, oh by the way if the appeal does not get overturned then i will start my tribunal claim

[keilidh king]

hello all still no reply, any help welcome, thanks

[Marieleeza]

hello all, thanks for replies,

appeal hearing soon, i will see my legal advisor before then. during the year 2011 i was sent home unpaid because i could not undertake all duties due to my medical ability, i was unpaid for these events, no meeting about why i would be sent home or letter, my contract states 42hr per wk, so as i see it this was breach of my contract so this current event leads me to believe that the above situation was taken into account as well. Also i now know who the witness informant is, he has admitted this to my work friend and states that he was constantly asked to provide a statement by work and done so under pressure, but he said he is not willing to provide a statement saying this for fear of his own job, this witness was not named but his department was during my disciplinary meetings by myself because i had a good idea who it was in the end. this person around this time was made to change shifts due to an alteration in his department and i stated that this person worked in this department had good reason to cause the damage due to changing shifts and loosing close work mates, this was not even considered before my dismissal, yet now proves that i was correct in the witness being that of one who had reason .

do you think i have a right to ask for this person to now be present for my appeal??????????????

all advice welcome, oh by the way if the appeal does not get overturned then i will start my tribunal claim

 

 

It is difficult to respond because I cannot follow some of what you are saying.

 

 

You now have a good idea but no actual proof of the identity of the worker who accused you and you were sacked on the basis of that accusation. You also say that that worker had an axe to grind with management over shift changes and probably did it himself. There are still no witnesses and from what you posted earllier, the CCTV seems to back you up as the timing indicates that you left before the damage occured.

 

You can bring all this up in your appeal. I do not know if you can ask that person to be called as a witness prior to getting an admission from him or from management confirming that he made the statement accusing you of being the vandal.

 

 

We need to know more about your health condition. If you have a health problem that has lasted or is likely to last for more than 12 months and it affects your ability to carry out day to day tasks ( this does not mean that you cannot do stuff but that it is painful or difficult for you to do them) you may qualify as disabled under the Equality Act 2010.

 

If you are disabled, you may be able add that to your unfair dismissal claim.

 

My understanding of the law is very basic. However, I believe that an employer can fairly dismiss a worker if it believes that he has done something wrong. This is called "reasonable belief", there does not have to be any actual proof. You would have to show that the employer acted unreasonably.

 

A process was gone through but other workers used the urinal and could just as easily have vandalised it. Management wanted to get rid of someone and picked the worker with the health problem because they did not like making adjustments for you. Having to go home because you could not cope with particular aspects of the job was an adjustment. The fact that you were not paid for this health related absence implies that the employer was unsympathetic to your condition.

 

I would be conscious of the timing here. It is best to submit your ET1 within 3 months of the urinal damage. If that date has passed, you can use the date of dismissal.

 

In my ignorant and unprofessional opinion, you have little chance of getting your job back on appeal. This has nothing to do with guilt or innocence it is just that management hardly ever reverse that type of decision.

 

Your chances of winning at Tribunal are also slim but not entirely hopeless. However, filling in an ET1 might make them decide to pay you off as defending the case would be expensive and their handling of the disciplinary process was poor.

 

I realise that this is very stressful for you. You appear to have been treated badly and are now without a job.

 

Please give details of you health problem so that CAGGERS can assist you further.

[keilidh king]

hello and thanks for reply

I do now know the identity of the informant because the said informant has told all this to my friend who has told me, yes i was sent home unpaid 7 times last year, yes my injury is to my lower back and is still being treated to this day. i have had this back issue for nearly three years and i do believe that this incident was related to my restrictive abilities.

the imformant stated thathe heard a noise 2 mins from him leaving the toilets and that puts me in the frame, but the informant as stated was made to change shifts around this time so in my opinion was the most likely to have caused it, i also understand that i have little chance of getting the job back but will do it if only for it helping with the et claim that will start soon, any more advice before i attend the meeting and legal team ? thanks

[Marieleeza]

hello and thanks for reply

I do now know the identity of the informant because the said informant has told all this to my friend who has told me, yes i was sent home unpaid 7 times last year, yes my injury is to my lower back and is still being treated to this day. i have had this back issue for nearly three years and i do believe that this incident was related to my restrictive abilities.

the imformant stated thathe heard a noise 2 mins from him leaving the toilets and that puts me in the frame, but the informant as stated was made to change shifts around this time so in my opinion was the most likely to have caused it, i also understand that i have little chance of getting the job back but will do it if only for it helping with the et claim that will start soon, any more advice before i attend the meeting and legal team ? thanks

 

The good news is that you may qualify as disabled. Did the employer offer any other assistance for your back problem other than sending you home unpaid? When was the last time this happened? How did you hurt your back?

 

As for the appeal, the main argument seems to be that you are losing your job because of an allegation made by another worker who refuses to identify himself. Unless he has reason to fear violence from you, that is a trifle odd. However, I do not think you can force the employer to reveal who dunnit.

 

Other people may have vandalised the urinal but only you are getting the sack. In my view, all suspects should be treated equally and this is not happening here. This is not a legal argument but one well worth pursuing at your appeal.

 

As your job has gone, you could mention your suspicions that your dismissal was disability related as I feel that you have little to lose.

 

I would put your appeal arguments in written form as it will provide a written record for you later and will also show if your arguments were considered or not.

 

The appeal is something that you must go through and there is no way out of it. What was the date of the vandalism? This is important because it determines when your ET1 claim should be made.

 

As I said before, if the vandalism occurred more than 3 months ago, you can use the date of dismissal and make your claim within 3 months of the dismissal dare. However, it is better to lodge the claim within 3 months of the vandalism, if that is possible.

You do not have to wait for the outcome of your appeal to lodge your ET claim. I assume that you would be claiming for unfair dismissal and disability discrimination. You really need some legal advice on this. There is a Disability Legal service which will assist you by phone. You can look them up on the Net and book an appointment for a solicitor to call you back. I have used this service and it was better than nothing. I found the Legal Services phoneline was a lot more help.

[keilidh king]

hello and again thanks for reply, yes work assisted a little by putting me on restrictive duties, these areas had been set by the company physio in 03/2011 and 10/2011 but ONLY after i asked for this help, they NEVER started any action it was always me. the last time i was sent home unpaid was 2 days before the event of the damage, but on the day i was last sent home before this damage i asked for a meeting with the production manager about my getting sent home, this was the same person who dismissed me, in this meeting he stated that he could do nothing until my last physio works appt. so i left happy that maybe something good will come of it all, after the date of the damage i had several issues before my suspension , as it it nearly 4 months since the damage happened, and nearly six weeks since my dismissal i will start my et this week, any responses welcome

[Marieleeza]

hello and again thanks for reply, yes work assisted a little by putting me on restrictive duties, these areas had been set by the company physio in 03/2011 and 10/2011 but ONLY after i asked for this help, they NEVER started any action it was always me. the last time i was sent home unpaid was 2 days before the event of the damage, but on the day i was last sent home before this damage i asked for a meeting with the production manager about my getting sent home, this was the same person who dismissed me, in this meeting he stated that he could do nothing until my last physio works appt. so i left happy that maybe something good will come of it all, after the date of the damage i had several issues before my suspension , as it it nearly 4 months since the damage happened, and nearly six weeks since my dismissal i will start my et this week, any responses welcome

Ok so the urinal damage happened 4 months ago and the last time you were sent home unpaid was over 4 months ago.

 

You asked for a meeting about the unpaid medical suspension (being sent home without pay) and were given a vague promise that something would be done after your final OH appointment. I take this to mean that you would at least have had a chance of getting your lost wages back.

 

However, 2 days later the urinal damage. Ths could be a coincidence but did you not say that it was a full 16 days before a co-worker made an anonymous statement saying that you did the damage? This makes it look very fishy to me.

 

You could claim disability discrimination on the grounds that you had an ongoing situation with management relating to you back problem. An adjustment had been made, restrictive duties, but this had resulted in several periods of unpaid suspension which you were not happy about. Management had vaguely promised to take action but when an opportunity arose chose to dismiss you on the grounds of "reasonable belief" that you had damaged company property. There was no actual evidence that you did the damage and others who had opportunity were neither disciplined or dismissed. Your dismissal was based on a belated statement from an anonymous coworker, who was also a disgruntled employee.

 

I think it is looking good and you have a chance of at least getting your lost wages back and perhaps some compensation for injury to feelings, even if you lose the unfair dismissal part of your claim.

 

As I said before, you do need some legal advice so try the Legal Services Phoneline or the Disability Law phoneline.

[keilidh king]

thanks all, i lost my appeal and am now entering my ET claim, i have evidence to support the fact that i am not the one who caused the damage so will keep you all informed, manyu thanks

[stu007]

Hi KK

 

Sorry to hear you lost your appeal but got to ask this - Did your appeal hearing panel consist of any staff members that were involved in your previous disciplinary hearing?

 

So they have relied upon a witness statement sent by email that is not only unsigned, not signed by seperate witness and more importantly could have been written be any single staff member of that company including those involved in the disciplinary and appeal hearing.

 

They have refused numerous requests by yourself for said witness to be present so you may cross examine as you are legally entitled to. The company has refused your request stating only that they wish to remain anonemous and gave you no further information under which company policy procedure or law act this is allowed.

[keilidh king]

hi thanks for response. yes the above is true i did not know who the informant was at the time of my dismissal and was not allowed to speak to him, but at my appeal stage i was told who he was and yes work said that this person that i named was the informant but despite my request to again ask him myself they presented a signed statement from him stating the same as before, they also gave me a statement from the last person to enter the toilets after myself . this person did not see any damage and yes he did speak with the informant but the informant did not mention the damage ie water on the floor,

i do have good evidence that has been obtained but cannot disclose this , so we will await the et3 response from work , thanks all

[ronnie6]

Hi, not much help but,

 

Did your appeal hearing panel consist of any staff members that were involved in your previous disciplinary hearing?

Hardly an appeal if the same people were on the panel.

So the "evidence" is the cctv footage of people entering and leaving the toilets, ,and the word of an anonymous witness who spent 20 minutes in a cubicle? ( I know if I disappear for that length of time they send out a search party )

Is your back injury work related or was it known about when the company employed you?

Unfair dismissal seems to be the way to go. I don't think they want you back and realistically I don't think you would want to go back after the way you have been treated.

( just re-read the thread and noticed your mention of "ET", I hope you mean "Employment Tribunal". Have you filled in your ET1 form?

[keilidh king]

hi ,yes have sent et1 off, no my back injury is not work related and yes from early 2011 occupational health had been involved, this still did not stop my unpaid sendings home though, yes they used the reasonable belief issue, with regards the cctv and at the time of my dismissal the annonymous witness, who i now know but was still not allowed to talk direct with him during my appeal, all i was given was a second statement stating he heard a noise late on and that indicates me on the cctv, we will wait to see what develops with the return of the et3 from my ex employer. thanks