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    • Please see my comments in orange within your post.
    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.   House or Flat? Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. Lenders have a legal obligation to sell the property for the best price they can get. If they feel the offer is low they won't sell it, because it's likely the borrower will say the same. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Again, points as above. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) Why serve a delapidations notice? If it's in the terms of the lease to maintain the property to a good standard, then serve an S146 notice instead as it's a clear breach of the lease. I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. Enfranchisement isn't something that can be "voided", it's in the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 that leaseholders have the right to buy the freehold of the property. It's normal, whether it is a "normal" leaseholder or a repossession with a leasehold house, to claim this right of enfranchisement and sell the property with said rights attached and the purchase price of the freehold included in the final completion price. That's likely what the mortgage provider wished to do. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Redact and scan said evidence up for others to look at? Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. So this is dealt with then. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.  You wouldn't vary a lease through a lease extension. You'd need a Deed of Variation for that. This may be done at the same time but the lease has already been extended once and that's all they have a right to. The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved. The lease has already been extended once so they have no right to another extension. It seems pretty easy to just get the lawyer to say no and stick by those terms as the law is on your side there. Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. Again, order them to revert it as they didn't have permission to do the works, or else serve an S146 notice for breach of the lease. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Debenhams/Santander Cards-Viking Collection Services LTD


Nicola85
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Ignore Viking and them telling you they want all or nothing, that is an unlawful request, and they will never admit to saying that in front of a judge!

 

If all you can manage to pay them, is the token payment of £1 a month, then do that, until such time that you are able to post up a clearer image of the agreement they sent you.

 

All you need is their bank details and you can set up a standing order, DO NOT set up a Direct Debit with them under any circumstances.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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The Images are just the front of the agreement. The right to cancel box is contained within the terms and conditions which were sent seperate from the agreement. The CAA I was sent was an A4 piece of paper with a 4x5 inch copy of the agreement. The back of the A4 piece of paper was blank and the terms and conditions for it were sent out seperate so I have no idea if they are the right ones for this agreement.

 

Is it still enforceable without the pescribed terms i.e repayments? Or are they allowed to put them in the terms and conditions?

 

I have been sent loads of documents by the DCA. They just say the usual like this debt isint going to go away so pay us the money you owe us and if I don't they will take me to court etc.

Edited by Nicola85
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I don't mean to be a pain but I would really like to move on with this. Is there someone who can tell me If my agreement is legally enforceable in court? It would really help so I can get started on the best course of action.

 

The agreement I recieved was a Microfiche.

 

The terms and conditions sent seperate from the agreement are current and not those used when I signed the agreement.

 

The 'right to cancel' box and the repayments are contained within the terms and conditions.

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On the face of things, what they have produced could be seen as enforceable. However if it went to court you could bring them to 'Strict Proof' where they would have to produce the original agreement... not a microfilche copy.

 

If the T&Cs they have supplied do not pertain to the CCA at its inception then it makes the CCA unenforceable. Send Viking this & see what their response is;

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On xx/xx/2009 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable, it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign

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I recieved a letter on Monday from Viking stating that it was more than likely that since they can't get payment from me they would be passing back my account back to Santander cards who will probably take legal action. Is there anything I should do? Should I start to worry yet?

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No nothing at all to worry about, wait until the OC starts sending you correspondence then take it from there.

 

What they are saying, when you read between the lines, is that they have no evidence to legally extort money from you, so will off load this lemon back to the idiots that sold it...

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Thanks, Bazooka Boo. Is this what happens with most peoples debts? Debt Collector buy the debt from Original Creditor then the Debt Collector finds that they have no legal evidence to take money from people so they sell it back to the Original Creditor? How often does the Original Creditor persue legal action? Just thinking that if a Debt Collector has not got enough evidence then it's not very likley that the Original Creditor will have any more.

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How often does the Original Creditor pursue legal action? Just thinking that if a Debt Collector has not got enough evidence then it's not very likely that the Original Creditor will have any more.

 

What normally happens is the the OC will use their own in-house collection agency first, for instance if you ran up a debt with the Halifax:D then you can expect to get letters from Blair Oliver & Scott, which is an acronym for Bank Of Scotland. Hence Halifax using their own in-house DCA.

 

Then to off load these 'Bad' debts, they will sell them in 'bulk' to other DCA's for a knock down price, and has been reported, for as little as 6p in the pound!

This then frees up the OC from having this Bad debt around their necks, and the rest of the money they are still owed is paid for by their insurance, so they don't lose anything.

 

The DCA who has bought your £1000 debt for say £160 will tell you that you owe them £1000, but are able to offer you a once in a lifetime offer to pay the debt off and can reduce that amount to say £800, this is how these companies make their profits and a why they are able to remain in business.

 

So rest assured that asking for the CCA, and then being told by that DCA that they have sent your file back to the OC is clarification that they bought your debt in bulk and have not been given the full file on your account.

 

And if they 'close' their files, it is safe to say that there is no such agreement and it will go quiet for a while, until such time as the OC flogs it on again to another DCA.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Today I recieved court papers. I'm not quite sure what to do. I know that I have to either deny or accept that I owe the debt. The problem I have is that YES I do owe the debt but I have no money in which to pay it with. If I accept that I owe the debt then I'll recieve a CCJ and I have no money to pay the CCJ. If I deny the debt then it's more than likely they can prove I owe them money and I'll still end up with a CCJ. I was never trying to get out of paying my debt. I just hit a bad financial patch and then things sarted to go down hill from there. I've tried talking to theese people and come to some sort of a payment arrangement but I'm not getting anywhere. Is there anyone who can give me some advice? Thanks so much. Nicola.

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Have you kept all correspondence relating to your payment proposals?

 

If you have stated to them that you will pay X amount per month/week and they have refused then, they will not have a leg to stand on in court, the judge will simply tell them that all they will get from now on is the amount you stated that you could afford, and if thats £1 a week, then tough on them.

 

Is it an SD you have received? If so you have 14 days in which to acknowledge it, and you can even do it online, so are able to take it right up to the 11th hour.

 

It's a shame you can't post it up for Cerbs to have a look at, does it refer to the document as a Statutory Demand?

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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As far as I can tell, it's a Claim form and a response pack. I'm suppost to fill in one of the two forms. One is to deny the other to accept. From what I can tell they are real papers they have been stamped by the court and it has a reference number. It's not a statutory demand.

 

What I really would like to ask is can I be issued with a CCJ if I don't have a wage and I don't owne a home or car?

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I think I'll just fill in the form and say I accept the debt. I can't fill in the one to deny as I have no defence as Yes I do owe the debt. So I'll just fill it in and tell them I have no wages and I don't have any outgoings and see what happens from there as they are never going to get any money out of me I have none and I doubt I'll have any for the forseable future. They can't take what I have not got.

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Just read through your thread and can't see any reply re default notice? Have you had one? Also, an assignment? Does it refer to these docs in the court claim? If so, you need to see them.

I'm going through a similar case. I sent a CPR request to the solicitors who came back with ...'don't have in their possession, are in process of retrieving...etc'. Then go on to give me extra time...etc!!! Do NOT fall for this. They try to get a CCJ by default.

 

Please try to find the strength to defend yourself. You've nothing to lose. Ask to see all docs they refer to now and file an embarrassed defence in the meantime. Online is very straightforward. Then it's up to them to prove they have a legitimate claim.

Good luck!

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Yes, it might be wise to send them a CPR request, I understand that you admit you owe this money but I would still defend, as you really have nothing to lose, I owe circa 55K and even though I do know I owe that money, I will defend myself at every turn.

 

If you need expert help quickly, then you can always click on the Red triangle to get the site teams attention and help.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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