Hi

I bought an item from a business via ebay and paid via paypal.

They sent the item via recorded delivery and it has been delivered and signed for, but I didn't sign for it and nobody I know (neighbour etc) did either.

What can I do?

Any help much appreciated

Thank you

Via Royal Mail?

Get in touch with them and explain the situation and also inform the seller as he will need to speak with them too.

RM employ a lot of casuals this time of year but they don't train them properly.

Hi.

Will do that.

Where do I stand legally.

Who is responsible?

Who needs to make any claims?

etc.

Thanks

Your contract is with the seller, it is their responsibility to get the item to you so you need to take it up with them.

You can certainly make some enquiries with Royal Mail if you think it will help but you are under no obligation to do so. Furthermore, RM probably won't be able to give you much more detail - Recorded Delivery items are not tracked, so they may not even be able to tell you what address it was delivered to. If you have the item number you will be able to view the signature online after a few days but this won't be much use if you don't know whose signature it is!

Contact the seller and push for a replacement.

They are saying that because the item has been delivered and signed for the responsibility has now passed to me. As far as they are concerned the item has been delivered as required!

Open a paypal dispute asap; they will usually side with the buyer.

It's worth asking for the ref. no from the recorded delivery slip as you can see online the signature if whoever signed for this & I think there might be a time on it too.

At least this way you can show it's not your signature, then paypal will advise seller to take it up with royal mail but will most likely refund you in the meantime.

I had similar situation with ASOS, I got refund in the end as the item had supposedly been signed for while I could prove I was at work 20 miles away!

Check out ebay community pages they're usually helpful

good luck

They are saying that because the item has been delivered and signed for the responsibility has now passed to me. As far as they are concerned the item has been delivered as required!

They can say what they want but the law is quite clear:

20(4) In a case where the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, where

there is a consumer contract in which the buyer is a consumer, subsections

(1) to (3) above must be ignored and the goods remain at the seller's risk

until they are delivered to the consumer.

32(4) In a case where the buyer deals as consumer or, in Scotland, where

there is a consumer contract in which the buyer is a consumer, subsections

(1) to (3) above must be ignored, but if in pursuance of a contract of sale

the seller is authorised or required to send the goods to the buyer,

delivery of the goods to the carrier is not delivery of the goods to the

buyer.

____________________________________________________________

What this means is that until the goods are delivered safely to you, the seller has to stand the risk. Any attempt by the seller to disclaim their statutory responsibilities cannot be legally enforceable.

You can certainly raise a Paypal dispute as suggested previously but they often do as they feel so they may well side with the seller even though you don't have the item. If no joy then legal action is the ultimate recourse.

Never trust that the person you spoke to actually checked before giving you an answer.

I know some-one who was told it was "lost". Then it had been signed for. Needless to say she demanded proof of signature. Meanwhile, her postie did remember taking it back to the sorting office and bless him, went out of his way to retrieve it, leaving his own mobile number for them to phone him to deliver. 3 cheers for that postie. The parcel was in fact inthe sorting office, it was just a case that the person who looked earlier simply read the return address, and the signature, well you can guess that was simply a porkie.

1) Phone again - complaints department tend to be more alert

2) Demand a copy of the alleged signature

3) See if seller tracked the item online, as they may have more info.

As someone who both buys and sells on eBay, I've experienced this problem from both sides. As a seller, it can be extremely frustrating, especially if, like me, it's just a hobby rather than a full-blown business. It's hard to tell if someone has genuinely not received the item or is just claiming they haven't so as to get a refund and a free item. I once had a dispute with one customer who actually described the item in his dispute, a pretty good feat considering he supposedly had never received it! Nevertheless, PayPal sided with him, and I had to give a refund. At the end of the day, PayPal do favour the buyer more than the seller, so you should get a refund. As a seller or buyer, theft happens and it's just one of the risks: it doesn't matter where from, you could have ordered this item from anywhere, the risk is the same.

As a buyer, I've had items not turn up at all, the seller accuse me of theft, false signatures in my name etc., again, I've always got a refund from PayPal. As a buyer, Royal Mail are particularly unhelpful: they consider that their only contract is with the seller, as they paid for the item to be posted. It's faulty logic, as it's usually the buyer who is paying the seller for the postage prior to the item being posted. RM will only refund the seller for lost mail, not the person who actually paid for the item. It's then up to the seller to refund you. So the chain usually goes: You start a dispute, PayPal refund you, PayPal chase seller to reimburse them, seller claims refund of postage from Royal Mail. It's usually the seller who ultimately loses out in these disputes, as they lose the item, as well as have to give a refund to the buyer, despite the loss being the responsibility of the carrier.

At the end of the day, it is incredibly easy for someone in the delivery chain to steal items. 'Proof of delivery' is hardly ever real proof. It's only in cases where the item is absolutely unique, and a search of a suspects house reveals just that item, can charges of theft be brought. RM really need a better system in place.

The seller has sent this recorded delviery. Paypal will find in his favour when he provides them with the tracking number.

Get the tracking number from the seller and try the track and trace to see if it is a name you recognize. You must make a complaint to your local sorting office. They are normally quite good. They even may still have the parcel there but you. Explain someone sent you an item recoded delivery and it has been signed for. They can check who was the postie that day and see if he can remember who he gave it to if indeed he did.

The Post Office will not accept a complaint from the intended recipient of the item, as I said before, they will only accept a complaint from the person they consider they had a contract with, i.e. the person who actually took the item to the post office and bought the stamps, the seller. I know, it's happened to me too. If the seller chooses, for whatever reason, not to make a complaint with the PO, then there is little the buyer can do to force Royal Mail to act. The only other options then are to bring legal action against the seller.

If you re read my post I didn't mention the post office.

The Post Office will not accept a complaint from the intended recipient of the item, as I said before, they will only accept a complaint from the person they consider they had a contract with, i.e. the person who actually took the item to the post office and bought the stamps, the seller. I know, it's happened to me too. If the seller chooses, for whatever reason, not to make a complaint with the PO, then there is little the buyer can do to force Royal Mail to act. The only other options then are to bring legal action against the seller.

Not the case here I'm afraid.

The item has been sent to the recipient via recorded delivery and allegedly signed for by the recipient.

The recipient has to make a complaint to Royal Mail as somebody is/has obviously impersonated the recipient. The seller can make the complaint too but Royal Mail will still investigate the matter raised by the recipient-after all, it is the recipient who has to give a statement of the facts of the matter that they never signed for the item.

Should the seller refuse to make a complaint then what you suggest is that the recipient has to continue with the threat of having future mail go astray.

And no contract is ever formed with the PO/Royal Mail in sending recorded delivery mail.

Put much better than I did, Weird Al Yankovic.

idax

I don't wish to contradict anyone here, all I am speaking of is my own direct experience of exactly the same problem. If there is no standardised procedure, I can't help that!

But in my case, I was specifically told by Royal Mail that I could not instigate a complaint. I thus had to ask the seller to make the complaint. In my case, the seller readily agreed to make a complaint, and duly did so. A month or so later, forms arrived from Royal Mail for me to fill in details of my side of the complaint, and to confirm non-receipt of goods. Obviously, I cannot speak for what others have been told, or whether the particular person I spoke to at Royal Mail was correct in the advice given to me, but in my case it had to be the seller who instigated the complaints procedure, and only later was I given the opportunity to confirm the sellers complaint.

I might add that in my case too, the item was sent by recorded delivery, and also signed for by someone impersonating me.

And I was specifically told that RM consider the purchase of postage to be a "contract" (exact word used) between the purchaser (i.e. the sender of the item) and RM.

But in my case, I was specifically told by Royal Mail that I could not instigate a complaint. I thus had to ask the seller to make the complaint.

Sounds about right - as the recipient RM will have little interest in your complaint and will most probably refer you back to the seller to make the complaint.

The OP should be dealing directly with the seller - any third party who the seller used for the delivery service is nothing to do with him and there should be no need for him to get involved with any such disputes. I stand by my advice in posts #4 and #7 - OP needs to deal directly with the seller.

And I was specifically told that RM consider the purchase of postage to be a "contract" (exact word used) between the purchaser (i.e. the sender of the item) and RM.

Sounds like you spoke to somebody who was a little clueless in this respect - the Recorded Delivery service is provided under the Postal Services Act 2000 and is not a contractual service.

On all Rm claim forms the recipetant can alos make a claim.

The seller in this case obviousl feels he has met his obligation via ebay/paypal but as a businees seller has not.

The quickest resolution would be to speak to someone in charge at the local sorting office not post office, they can be very helpful and will speak to the postie that was delivering that day.

Idax

Based on a recent experience:

Sounds about right - as the recipient RM will have little interest in your complaint and will most probably refer you back to the seller to make the complaint.

My friend was told this and indeed the seller became involved. As soon as the seller knew the item had been signed for then they deemed their contract complete, as delivery had been made. It was then left to Royal Mail. My friend also spoke to the person at Royal Mail and was told the same, ie had signed for it. In reality, Royal Mail also claimed it was "lost" . It was only after involving the postie himself that the parcel was then delivered. Looks like the Royal Mail helplines got rather confused twice in my friends case alone.

 

Sounds about right - as the recipient RM will have little interest in your complaint and will most probably refer you back to the seller to make the complaint.

Surely in that case, if the seller either refuses to answer or says "not my problem", how do you as the recipient then escalate the loss?

Surely in that case, if the seller either refuses to answer or says "not my problem", how do you as the recipient then escalate the loss?

..

You can certainly raise a Paypal dispute as suggested previously but they often do as they feel so they may well side with the seller even though you don't have the item. If no joy then legal action is the ultimate recourse.

Surely in that case, if the seller either refuses to answer or says "not my problem", how do you as the recipient then escalate the loss?

You're right Conniff.

This incident is slightly different from the 'norm' in that the sender would need to complain.

It is the recipient who has to contact Royal Mail as somebody has obviously fraudulently signed for an item, which, importantly, was sent to the recipient's home.

The seller has obviously sent the item as it arrived, although never received.

The problem is clearly at the receiving end and Royal Mail will investigate any address in the UK where a problem has occurred. To do this the householder simply has to complain to Royal Mail about problems with his post. Information, such as a tracking number, from the seller will obviously help.

Should it be found that this isn't just a case of a misunderstanding but something more sinister then RM have their own investigators for this type of thing.

Thanks way - I thought there must be some method of getting redress.

Thanks way - I thought there must be some method of getting redress.

Absolutely, otherwise should your mail not be getting through to you are you expected to contact every sender who has sent you mail recently to get them to complain?

What about mail you are not expecting!?

Not only that but here the receiver's signature was forged which goes beyond missing mail.

This is all based on a number of assumptions. For starters, the recipient doesn't have proof of posting - how can they (or Royal Mail) be sure that the item was actually sent to them?

How do they know the sender hasn't mixed up the tracking numbers and given them the wrong one?

How do they know the seller didn't make some mistake in addressing the item?

I would want to be fairly sure of my facts before I start making some kind of complaint to anybody.

And most importantly - the recipient has no interest or benefit in getting involved in any third party disputes.

As a consumer, if I order an item from XYZ company and it doesn't reach me, then I will expect XYZ company to rectify this. Why the hell should I start messing around contacting ABC courier company? It is the retailer who chose the company to deliver the item, not me - I didn't enter into any contract with a delivery company or select which one should be used - it is the seller's responsibility to sort it out. And the law quite clearly states that the responsibility lies with the seller - they need to sort the problem out.

Not only that but here the receiver's signature was forged

According to whom?