Overseas Landlord

[WendyN]

Hello,

 

it's a bit involved, this, so apologies in advance!

 

We finally moved out of rented accomodation last year, after having an awful few years renting from a cowboy ex-landlord and gutless estate agents.

 

We had an inventory check when we moved in, and loads of problems with damp during our tenancy, which both the landlord and the agents refused to do anything about; each blaming each other. The landlord finally agreed (in writing) to give us a months rent as compensation for this, but the agent confirmed to us that he intended to take this out of our deposit when we moved out.

 

When we did finally move out, a final inventory check couldn't take place as workmen had already moved in to sort out the damp, and the place was turned upside down. We do however have photographs as evidence that the flat was in good condition when we left it. Better than when we moved in, in fact, apart from the damp problems which they were aware of.

 

However, despite having no legal basis for charging us anything, the landlord has refused to return the deposit or the extra compensation. He has claimed that most of the money was spent cleaning the place up, but has not provided any evidence of this, to us or the agents. The estate agents themselves have admitted that this is an astronomical amount to spend on cleaning, but claim that they cannot release any of the deposit without agreement from the landlord. And they can't hold him to his promise for an extra month's rent either.

 

We have tried ARLA, and we have tried the Dispute Service, but the landlord is refusing to co-operate with either of them. The Estate Agents have washed their hands of him, and say they can't help. So we then served a claim on his Power of Attorney (his mother) through the Small Claims Court.

 

Fast forward to yesterday - it turns out that although he uses a Power of Attorney in the UK to manage his rental properties here, this Power of Attorney has now developed a 'disability' and is now unable to operate on his behalf. So we now have to serve papers to his home address (this is the good bit)

- in Thailand.

 

Does anyone have any experience of dealing with overseas landlords that could help / give advice? We would really like to get our mopney back, but don't know if the UK courts would be able to do anything given that he doesn't live here. I get the feeling that this might not be the first time this has happened, and that this may be his normal trick when he rips his tenants off.

Do we stand any chance at all of ever getting our money back?

[WendyN]

We have just re-served the small claims court papers to his address in Thailand, so will just have to wait and see...

[MARTIN3030]

Phew the lengths people will go to to avoid paying you back !!

 

How would the photographs prove your case?

Did you ask for reciepts for the alleged cleaning operation ?

 

looks like he DID clean up.........in a different way by taking your money.

 

There must be some legislation that you can use to try and recover this money and like you suggest these people usually have a history of doing this sort of trick.

 

I would expect there is someone on this site who can throw some light on your course of action.

[WendyN]

Well, the photographs prove that the flat was in good condition when we left it. When we came back with the estate agents after the weekend, the whole place was turned upside down, dustsheets everywhere, carpets up, wallpaper hanging off walls, the lot. So we and the estate agents agreed that a final inventory check wasn't possible.

 

He hasn't provided us with any receipts, although we have asked him few times (through the estate agents, as he lives in Thailand). There's not actually a final inventory check to back these up anyway, and he may well be trying to get us to pay for cleaning up after the workmen. So there's no way he can prove anything one way or the other. And yet he still has our money! The estate agents are no help whatsoever, and refuse to get involved.

 

Well, we've sent the claim off again, so we'll just have to hope it gets there. Apparently you can also serve them electronically, so we may try that.

[MARTIN3030]

Sounds all rather sleazy........Just like the place he has gone.

I heard you dont need lots of dosh to get things you want there.

Apparantly its a paradise for westerners looking for you know what and I am not talking about adults mention no names Gary Glitter oops.

 

I am not for one minute suggesting your ex landlord is one of those kinds of people..............

 

I hope you can serve the docs I have heard of Landlords keeping a low profile or being unavailable but Thailand ?

 

erm...........

 

[WendyN]

Hi again,

 

We got the papers back from Money Claim Online yesterday, and they cannot process the claim if the address is outside England & Wales. So effectively we are back to square one!

 

The situation is that a) the landlord lives in Thailand, and we can't serve papers on him there; b) his power of attorney has refused to deal with our case, as she says she has a disability (although she was fine the last time we saw her...!) and c) the Estate Agents, who are presumably his agents in the UK, say that there is nothing they can do without his consent, and are also refusing to take responsiblity.

 

I am really hoping that someone can help here, this is just getting worse...

 

1) Does a landlord operating from outside the UK have to have a UK address to operate from? Can we serve papers on him personally at that address? Does anyone know the laws in this area? Surely he can't just run back to Thailand and be untouchable to UK laws, but still earn money on a UK property?!

 

2) If he doesn't have to have an address in the UK, but does have to have an agent, can we force the estate agents to deal with this? If so, how? Can we serve papers on them, as his agents?

 

We would be really grateful for any help or advice, as we're going round in circles, and he is getting away with it...

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

WendyN please answer the following questions:

 

1.How long were you a tenant at the property?

 

2.Who did you pay the to during your tenancy? The landlord/agent/power of attorney?

 

3.How much were you charged rent per month?

 

Also very briefly describe the disrepair in the property.

 

The answers to the above should hopefully enable me to assist you further.

[WendyN]

Hiya,

 

we were tenants there for 2 years and 11 months. We paid the rent to the estate agents by standing order every month - £450, for a fully furnished flat.

 

It was a basement flat, and had problems with damp - initially we did not notice these, as the flat had recently been re-papered and we moved in over the summer. However, after six months there damp started to appear in the hallway and the main bedroom. We mentioned this to the estate agents in our regular 6 month inspections, but nothing happened. After about a year of this (18 months into our tenancy) we put our concerns in writing, and still nothing happened. By this time the problem was getting pretty bad. We have photographs of this from when we moved out - I don't have them with me today, but will try to post them tomorrow. The estate agents eventually got someone in to have a look at it, but the landlord disagreed with their conclusions (and with their prices!) so got his own guy to come in. At this point it became obvious that we would need to move out whilst any work was done, and he didn't want to pay for it. So he gave us notice for eviction, and we eventually moved out June 2005. The workmen moved in next day, and from what we saw at our flat inspection it seemed that they were cleaning it up and papering it over again, rather than fixing the problem.

 

Although no final check took place with the estate agents, the landlord to date has tried to charge us for the replacement of two sofas (which we rejected, as they only had fair wear & tear for the length of our tenancy) and for cleaning (which we also disputed, as it was a ridiculous amount). We asked for copies of receipts, and a signed exit inventory (which of course they don't have, as it wasn't done.) At this point the landlord threw his dummy out of the pram and refused to have anything more to do with us, and kept the money. The estate agents say that they can't release the money without his authorisation, which he has refused to give. We tried to go to ARLA & their conciliation service, but apparently our tenancy was too old or something and we would need our landlord's authorisation to use it - which he of course refused to give.

 

And that brings us pretty much up to date!

 

Thank you for any help / advice you can give!

 

W

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

WendyN,in reply to your posting:

 

1.Send Letter Before Action to the agent because the landlord's agent is deemed to have been acting on behalf of the landlord for the full deposit amount and promised compensation for disrepair.

 

2.If you get no joy after say 1 month,SUE it is as simple as that.

 

3.When you sue for the damp conditions,I believe that a claim that exceeds £1,000 is not heard in the Small Claims Track.Check with the County Court regarding this.If so,make your claim for an "unfixed amount" for the disrepair upto the value of £1,000 including interest.It is then up to the judge to decide the amount to award you.If he/she thinks it should be higher than the amount promised you would receive it.

 

4.Regarding the deposit amount - it is difficult to say how it would work out.However,I would have thought because you have the photos this should swing things to your advantage.

 

Follow my other postings within the Landlord & Tenant Section of this forum that should assist you further and if you have any more questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hello,

 

thanks, I will draft a letter before action tonight. I guess I just outline the facts of the case, give the amounts involved then say that it's their responsibility as the landlord's agent, now that his power of attornery has ducked out? Should I address it to the landlord c/o the estate agents?

 

Thank you SO much for your help & advice.

 

Wendy

[Nightmare4banks]

WendyN...

 

You are more than welcome.This forum is designed to see that people get redress and to not put up with rubbish treatment.

 

ANYWAY...

 

So,in reply to your question:

 

1.Yes,send the letter by recorded/special delivery to the agent.Remember if the letting agent is a limited company - the company is liable.Also the address may not be the address that you are aware of.

 

 

You can find out the details of the directors and registered address online with companies house.

Then send the Letter Before Action for the attention of the Director of xyz Ltd ref Mr abc owner based in Thailand - property address xxxxxxxxxxxxx & Tenant xxxxxx then insert dates of tenancy.

 

2.In the case of a limited company agent and you find out the company address differs from the one you know - send the LBA by Recorded/Special Delivery to both addresses.So there can be no excuses for not responding!

 

3.Just another important point,"an absent landlord" has an obligation by law to hire an agent based in this country for as long as he is away and especially if he has emigrated.

 

Anyway,I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you have any more questions just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hiya,

 

just another quick question - what if they are backed by a plc? Does this make a difference?

Countrywide Residential Lettings - Profile

 

We are a bit wary of taking on a big company on our own with all their legal backup...!

 

Have looked on companies house and found the registered address though, so can send off the letter. The legal obligation you refer to - is that the one below, and if so, does it have to be the estate agents?

 

Thanks for your help... Wendy

 

Residential Landlord - Landlord regulations

 

Section 47, Landlord and Tenant Act 1987

 

This legislation requires that every demand for rent carries the address of the landlord and if that address is outside England and Wales the demand for rent must also carry an address in England and Wales where notices in proceedings can be served on the landlord.

 

Failure to comply with section 47 means that any portion of the rent which is attributable to service charge is not lawfully due. The address of the landlord on such a written demand could be the landlord’s office address, rather than home address.

Section 48 Landlord and Tenant Act 1987

 

This requirement is very similar to section 47 but with a subtle difference – it requires that the tenant must be given an address in England where notice of proceedings can be served on the landlord – it follows that this address does not have to be that of the landlord.

 

Until section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 is complied with rent is not lawfully due.

[WendyN]

OK, here is proposed letter - does it sound OK?:

 

For the attention of:

Director of XXX Ltd

...

 

Reference: Mr. X based in Thailand

Property address: ...

Tenants: ..., 5th July 2002 - 4th June 2005

Dear Sir/Madam,

We were tenants at the above property from 5th July, 2002 until 4th June, 2005, during which time we experienced severe problems with damp which were never resolved. As a result of this and many other problems, including workmen entering the property without our knowledge or permission, and damage occurring as a result, our landlord offered us one month's rent (£450) in writing on xx/xx/xx (copy attached herewith).

Additionally, as occupancy had been taken up at the flat between our vacation on 4th June, 2005 and the final inventory visit with us on 7 June 2005, no Final Inventory Check could take place. Despite protracted correspondence on the matter, our tenancy deposit (£550), paid xx/xx/xx has never been returned (copy of receipt also attached).

We have repeatedly requested that you return our deposit in view of the fact that the premises were left in an acceptable state of cleanliness and, allowing for fair wear and tear, in the state that they were encountered. We would like to remind you that tenants have rights, not only obligations, and that landlords have obligations, besides rights. This also relates to deposits. Deposits must not be regarded by landlords as an extra rent only to be returned reluctantly or used to actually improve the condition of the property.

The onus is on you to prove that there were circumstances justifying the retention of all or part of the deposit, not on us to prove that we are entitled to its return. Unfortunately, you have not provided any relevant evidence, and given that no final inventory check took place, we do not feel that it is possible for you to do so. The landlord must remember, as it is the tenant’s money, he has to account for it properly. It is a very common misconception, that the deposit belongs to the landlord - it is not so and the withholding of it without proper validation is illegal.

 

As Mr. X’s sole agent for his business interests in the UK, and in the absence of a competent power of attorney, according to Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987, you are therefore responsible for the payment of these monies. We are therefore requesting £1,000 plus £XXX in accrued interest for the sum which is owed; plus costs of £80; in total £XXXXX.

We require repayment in full of these monies. If you do not comply fully within 28 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs and without further notice.

Yours Sincerely

...

[Nightmare4banks]

WendyN,

 

In reply to your posting:

 

1.DO NOT be intimidated by suing a large company.

 

2.At the end of the day,you do have a case against your former landlord and the Small Claim does not cost much to issue.So what are youi worried about?

 

3.Replace the word illegal in your letter with unlawful.

 

4.Make your letter into bullet points rather than a paragraph format - it is much easier to use and cross reference should the matter get to a court hearing.

 

I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you have any questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hello,

 

All done! Letter sent! Am a bit nervous, but like you say, we do have a legitimate claim and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

 

Will keep you posted...

 

Thanks again for all your help and advice,

 

Wendy

 

13/04/05 - One month's rent promised by landlord (£450)

04/06/05 - Damages deposit retained by landlord on leaving property (£550)

05/06/06 - MCOL claim served on overseas landlord (£1000 + interest + costs)

01/08/06 - Letter Before Action sent to his UK estate agent

425 days and counting...

[MARTIN3030]

Good luck with this Wendy,I have been following the progress (even though there has been little by way of a result)

 

Your letter should now go some way,if not all the way in a result for you.

 

Lets hope there are lessons to be learned and that this Landlord will be forced into knowing he cannot go about blatantly abusing the laws of the land to line his own pockets.

 

Your perseverence and the will to take this guy to task and claim back what,after all is rightfully yours........will in the end prove that you were 100% justified in bringing about such action.

[WendyN]

Hello all,

 

just a quick question! We sent our Letter Before Action a few weeks ago to the estate agents, and they have until 29th August to respond before we re-serve papers on them through MCOL. However, on passing the property the other day (we don't live that far away) we noticed that it is now up for sale. No further corresondence from the estate agents as yet, but we're just making sure of our position. Does it matter if the agent is no longer acting for the landlord (if the property is being sold), as long as they were acting on his behalf for the duration of our tenancy?

 

Thanks...

 

Wendy

[MARTIN3030]

Your claim is specifically for dates in the past when they WERE acting agents.

Has the property gone up for sale after your action started ?

 

Either way they were still responsible and your action is well within the 6 year limitations for litigation.

[WendyN]

Hiya,

 

I'm pretty sure that the house has gone up for sale since we started the action in June. Certainly haven't noticed the For Sale sign until very recently. Although at the moment it has been taken down again and scaffolding erected to do further repairs... :o) couldn't happen to a nicer bloke!

 

We have written confirmation that they were the agents and the landlord's address in the UK when we were tenants, so I'm sure we'll be fine.

 

Thanks for the reassurance though!

 

W

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

WendyN - you are doing fine.

 

Do not let the swines exploit you or rip you off!!!

 

Any questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hi chaps,

here I am again. OK, so we sent an LBA to the company director, and copied in the local office. Got a letter back from the local office saying that they had sent a copy of our letter to the landlord in Thailand for his instructions, and his power of attorney (thought he didn't have one any more ?!). Wrote back saying that they had only been copied in as a courtesy, and that we were taking it up with head office.

 

Sent another reminder after 14 days, and eventually had the following offer: of our total claim £1000, plus costs plus interest, they offered us £550 plus £50 as a goodwill gesture. We wrote to them to turn this offer down, and re-served the papers on them 11/09/06.

 

Strangely, head office then sent us two cheques for £300 yesterday anyway, so we can't decide whether they crossed in the post, or whether they are planning to defend the claim by saying that they have paid us off. I'll be drafting a letter over the weekend saying that we accept the money only as part payment for the claim and will still be taking them to court for the rest... So again, will keep you posted of progress! I think we must be on the right track though!

 

13/04/05 - One month's rent promised by landlord (£450)

04/06/05 - Damages deposit retained by landlord on leaving property (£550)

05/06/06 - MCOL claim served on overseas landlord (£1000 + interest + costs)

01/08/06 - Letter Before Action sent to his UK estate agent

11/09/06 - re-served papers on UK estate agent

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

WendyN,I have two questions for you:

 

1.Has the agent stated the reason behind offering you a lower amount?

2.Do you have it in writing to confirm the offer of one months rent for compensation for the disrepair?

 

Also,please note:

 

a.In my view you should get more that just £50 because it depends on how long you endured the disrepair,the level of this disrepair and most importantly what remedies did the landlord or agent carry out make your living conditions better.At the end of the day,judges get very annoyed when landlords/agents flout the laws and do not care about their tenants.

 

b.Normally,what happens is a judge would see to refund part weekly rent payments to you after examining all evidence of the disrepair etc.This is called "deminition in rent value".All this means is that when you were paying £450 per month for the flat it had a rental worth say of only £400 due to the disrepair.If you suffered the disrepair for say 1 year,you should receive the following amount:

 

Deminition in Rent for One Month:

 

£450 - £400 = £50

 

Total Deminition in Rent/Compensation:

 

£50 x 12 = £600

 

It would probably be calculated from the date the landlord/agent was notified - it is good that you sent the letter as I read in your previous post.Again,only the judge can decide the exact date to use in the calculation.

 

c.Send back the cheques by recorded delivery and tell the agent:

 

I was hoping that that you would agree to settle amicably before any hearing,I would be more than happy to do this so I will then notify the court that my claim against you has been withdrawn.

 

d.In the event of getting paid,DO NOT withdraw your claim until you receive cleared funds from the agent.Only at this stage should you contact the court to withdraw your claim.

 

Anyway,I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you have questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hello,

 

1. No, they just said that if we did take the landlord to court, he would probably counter sue - although with what evidence, remains to be seen, as no final inventory check was taken.

2. Yes, we have it in writing from the landlord in a letter from April 2004. This is why we are seeking more than £50.

 

Wendy

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

WendyN,in reply to your last post:

 

1.You state that the landlord wants to countersue.As a part of the disclosure process in civil court rules,your opponent has the obligation to state clearly the reasons behind the counterclaim backed up with evidence in the form i.e.receipts,sworn statements etc etc.

 

2.If your opponent does not come up with with goods i.e. the evidence whatever it may be you could request from the court that the courterclaim has no basis and therefore should be struck out accordingly and the reasons are:

 

a.To save both parties time and money.

 

b.To save The Honourable Court valuable time that could be used in dealing with other really geniune cases.

 

If and when the time may arise,just let me know so I can word the above in a more concise manner for you.

 

3.It is good that you have the written evidence regarding the amount from the landlord,so there is nothing for you to worry about here.You will need to send a copy of this letter to the court and the landlord/agent at the appropriate time.

 

I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you need any more help,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[WendyN]

Hello,

 

on advice from MCOL, as we had to change the defendants address from the landlord to the agents anyway, we accepted the agent's offer as a partial refund, and amended the court documents accordingly, paying ~£30 to make the changes. It has taken us three months to get it right, what with the papers being sent back regularly because we hadn't underlined something or done in red pen... Then just before Christmas we were told that the papers had gone to the district judge for permission to amend them - which was news to us, as they had cashed our cheque anyway! Then today we received the following:

 

BEFORE DISTRICT JUDGE

SITTING AT NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COURT

ON 30TH DECEMBER 2006

WITHOUT A HEARING

REASON: CLAIMANT APPLICATION TO AMEND THE DEFENDANT NAME, EXTEND THE CLAIM, AMEND THE PARTICULARS OF CLAIM AND RE-SERVE THE CLAIM.

IT IS ORDERED THAT:-

• APPLICATION IS REFUSED.
  
• IF APPEARING THAT THE CLAIM IS BEING MADE AGAINST A LETTING AGENT RATHER THAN THE LANDLORD, THE CLAIM HAS NO REASONABLE PROSPECT OF SUCCESS.

A) IF THE DEFENDANT WAS AN AGENT; END.

B) IF THE DEFENDANT IS A DIRECTOR OF A COMPANY AGAINST WHOM ANY CLAIM IS, SEND TO COURT.

NOTE: a party affected by the Order may under Rule 3.3 (5) apply to have it set aside, varied or stayed. Such a party must apply under Rule 23.3 within 14 days of service of this Order.

 

I think the whole court system is biased towards our landlord and the estate agents. What right to they have to decide whether it is winnable or not?! Surely that is our risk to take? What can we do now? Please help.