Police getting "clued-up" at long last ?

[The Watcher]

I urge everyone to read thoroughly (and take a copy of) this statement from Devon / Cornwall Police and keep it handy !

 

http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/showpdf.cfm?pdfname=CJU_D222.pdf

[Recycler]

very interesting reading

worth copying to everyones Chief Constable asking for similar guidelines to be publicly issued...?

[The Watcher]

very interesting reading

worth copying to everyones Chief Constable asking for similar guidelines to be publicly issued...?

 

I am a little concerned with one aspect ... they do not appear to realise that bailiffs collection for Council Tax need to be Certificated?

 

I have contacted Devon and Cornwall Police and pointed out this error - I will let you know when I get a response.

 

It would be worth getting ALL police forces to adopt similar "advice" - if only for the benefit of their own officers (and as this has been produced by a police force already, they would be more willing to accept it).

[ambercain]

Well researched Watcher.

THis answers many questions posters are asking. In particular, that a bailiff might be arrested for breach of the peace depending on how he/she is conducting him/herself, what ID and documentary evidence they can show and what documentary authority they have.

It's excellent. Given that it's Drakes they're dealing with it's hardly surprising they're so concerned.

[The Watcher]

Well researched Watcher.

THis answers many questions posters are asking. In particular, that a bailiff might be arrested for breach of the peace depending on how he/she is conducting him/herself, what ID and documentary evidence they can show and what documentary authority they have.

It's excellent. Given that it's Drakes they're dealing with it's hardly surprising they're so concerned.

 

Yes, thanks ... it may also start to get the police to look at the situation in a slightly different light - especially when they realise that a FRAUD is being committed by anyone claiming to be able to levy but not having the relevant certification?

[ambercain]

Absolutely.

There is another thread detailing a conversation in Parliament on this very point but I didn't make a note of where I saw it today. I think it was Baroness Scotland in the Lords, answering Lord Lucan.

 

I thought he'd done a runner years ago.

[patrickq1]

i have sent a copy to the police sargeant at the abergele north wales branch asking will he adopt a simmallar response well done watcher

[The Watcher]

i have sent a copy to the police sargeant at the abergele north wales branch asking will he adopt a simmallar response well done watcher

 

Please let us know how you get on.

Let's see if we can get ALL forces to at least educate their officers as to the law !

 

If we are able to show them what the law really is (at the time that it matters) they will be less inclined to simply "accept" whatever a bailiff tells them.

 

At present, through ignorance, the police are often unwittingly an accessory to a crime, where they actually "assist" a bailiff even though he may not be Certificated and therefor acting unlawfully.

[PizzaMaker]

I am afraid that you should not take that report as concrete. They have copy and pasted some of this report relating to the law. In 4.7, it does not mention that a bailiff can lawfully have a locksmith with him to gain entry into a premises on a magistrate court warrant.

 

It is also interesting to read point 4.9

 

THERE ARE NO RESTRICTION FOR WHEN A LEVY CAN TAKE PLACE.

 

SUGGESTED TIME OF 6AM and 10PM. It does not say you can not do this before 6am or after 10pm.

 

Then again this is only Devon and Cornwall.

[The Watcher]

I wonder what the two "dates" mean? One is Jan 2007 (Policy Version date) - the other Jan 2008 (Review date).

 

Does it perhaps mean that this has been put forward for consultation and they will make a final decision in Jan 2008?

 

One thing is for certain - we CANNOT have the law interpretted differently in one county to the rest of the UK.

 

I'll let you know whan I get a reply from Devon & Cornwall police.

 

Your point (4.7) is covered by 4.6.d - is it not?

 

Re 4.9 - "suggested times for levying" - as you do not have to admit the bailiff, you can simply send them away until a "reasonable" time. Sane people would not consider 6am (or after dark) as being a "reasonable time" to open your door to a stranger. Calls made at such times are intentionally made to catch the debtor in their nightclothes and make them feel even more vulnerable.

[fairblf]

Pizzamaker is right. This report is not "The Law" set in stone but only one forces (innacurate) interpretation. It is flawed in many areas such as the Bailiff being required to produce a Court Order or a photocopy of one. There is no legal requirement for a Bailiff to be in physical possession of a warrant "but only have knowledge of the existence thereof".

And the part where it is stated that the Debtor may remove or conceal goods to avoid distress. In actual fact, under "bound seizure" the Debtor is prevented from doing so.

This report is so flawed that in my humble opinion it would be dangerous for a Debtor to rely on its contents as fact

[The Watcher]

We'll have to see ... but it IS (apparently) what Devon & Cornwall police will use as their guideance, so it's "the law" as far as "the law" is concerned !

 

I think any Court would be very sympathetic, if someone had relied on (and followed) official police guidance.

 

As for not removing or hiding goods - I've read many times that this IS allowed (if goods have not already been seized).

[PizzaMaker]

You are not allowed to remove or hide goods.

 

As you have mentioned Watcher, this is only for "guidance".

[The Watcher]

You are not allowed to remove or hide goods.

 

WHAT IF I HIDE THINGS OR GIVE THEM AWAY?

If the bailiffs haven't yet been in, you can hide things or take them somewhere else.

 

Taken from National Debtline - National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax

 

also, from the same link as above -

BAILIFFS PROCEDURES

 

If the bailiffs are distraining for Poll Tax or Council Tax there are certain procedures that they have to follow.

They must have with them:

• written authorisation from the council for them to call. They should show you this if you ask.

>>

 

Exactly - is that not exactly what this guidance information is for?

 

>>

 

Possibly, but you DON'T have to let them in or deal with them, do you? It would be a very foolish person who merely opened-up to anyone who happened to claim that they were a bailiff and had a warrant (but didn't have it with them)!

[Esio Trot]

It would appear that the link to Devon and Cornwall Constabulary on post #1 no longer works.

[B.A.Ts]

It would appear that the link to Devon and Cornwall Constabulary on post #1 no longer works.

http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/pdfstore/CJU_D222.pdf

[The Watcher]

I sent a request to my local Constabulary - linking to the above - and asked them if they had any plans to issue similar advise.

 

Can anyone guess what the answer was?

[B.A.Ts]

hmm let me guess...... no !!!

 

I actually think the police are too scared to take up any policy in case of repercussion as they use bailiff's themselves with regards to warrants etc..

[The Watcher]

hmm let me guess...... no !!!

 

10 points to you, B.A.Ts !

 

If you got six policemen in a room and asked them all to explain bailiff law, I doubt one would get it right.

 

Thats why they tend to avoid the subject (fear of acting wrongly) and hide behind the "its a civil matter" banter.

[alfwithhair]

Well I live in the Devon & Cornwall policing area and would be very supprised if they took any notice at all of this statement. In my opinion they are lazy, self opinionated and bend the rules to suit the situation.

 

I have had to ask for their services on a number of occasions, they are either too busy or not interested. "Civil matter, sir"

 

If you are a motorist, then beware they will be on you like a ton of bricks, but if you are a vandal, thief, mugger or violent then ply your trades in the West Country. The boys in blue look the other way. Paperwork is too much for them.

[Rob S]

10 points to you, B.A.Ts !

 

If you got six policemen in a room and asked them all to explain bailiff law, I doubt one would get it right.

 

Thats why they tend to avoid the subject (fear of acting wrongly) and hide behind the "its a civil matter" banter.

 

Police are not trained in bailiff matters so it's not surprising you would get 6 different responses. It's not a question of hiding behind "It's a civil matter", that is what they are trained to do.

[noomill060]

I live in Northern Ireland. In 1971 the office of bailiff was abolished due to the fact that, what with the Troubles at their height no one took them seriously anymore.

 

ie: they were classed as Crown Forces by the IRA, and as such, a lot of them had errr...warrants of execution served on them by someone wearing a balaclava.

[Chesterexpress]

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