SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[Peterbard]

Yes and what if for instance i want to settle my loan early and find that there is an early settlement charge been aplied to my settlement figure.I send off my cca request and there it is in black and white on the aggrement,no signature of course and no way for you to prove it isn't legit.

It isn't just about proving the debt exists but making sure the creditor is made to conform to the agreement.I can thik of many other scenario's where the poor old debtor could get screwed.

[jay2006]

hello have been reading this thread and just wanted to make u all aware that although u do all seem to have good points one thing u have all missed is that if the original agreement was signed over 6 years ago the creditor is NOT obliged to hold a copy of said agree - the law actually stands that they have to keep a copy of agreement that is easily accessable for a period of 3 years, once this period has elapsed thay can then move the document to Microfiche and store it elsewhere in their archives - after 3 years there they are no longer legally required to keep a copy. i work for a solicitor that specialises in consumer debt recovery and believe me you have to work EXTREAMLEY hard to get a debt made "unenforceable" ur best bet is to challenge the charges u have incurred rather than the whole debt as u will more often than not get a full refund for these charges if u push enough. Hope that helps.

[Mike220359]

hello have been reading this thread and just wanted to make u all aware that although u do all seem to have good points one thing u have all missed is that if the original agreement was signed over 6 years ago the creditor is NOT obliged to hold a copy of said agree - the law actually stands that they have to keep a copy of agreement that is easily accessable for a period of 3 years, once this period has elapsed thay can then move the document to Microfiche and store it elsewhere in their archives - after 3 years there they are no longer legally required to keep a copy. i work for a solicitor that specialises in consumer debt recovery and believe me you have to work EXTREAMLEY hard to get a debt made "unenforceable" ur best bet is to challenge the charges u have incurred rather than the whole debt as u will more often than not get a full refund for these charges if u push enough. Hope that helps.

 

Sounds like someone grabbing at straws to me Jay.

 

If that was the case bearing in mind solicitors are very intelligent and hard working why haven't they used that xcuse before. Regardless of your standpoint the CCA 1974 is very precise.

 

Turn it on it's head, it's very difficult to make a contract enforcable if the documentation isn't up to scratch!

 

Please don't try to scare people off, is that what it's come to?

 

Mike

[Mike220359]

hello have been reading this thread and just wanted to make u all aware that although u do all seem to have good points one thing u have all missed is that if the original agreement was signed over 6 years ago the creditor is NOT obliged to hold a copy of said agree - the law actually stands that they have to keep a copy of agreement that is easily accessable for a period of 3 years, once this period has elapsed thay can then move the document to Microfiche and store it elsewhere in their archives - after 3 years there they are no longer legally required to keep a copy. i work for a solicitor that specialises in consumer debt recovery and believe me you have to work EXTREAMLEY hard to get a debt made "unenforceable" ur best bet is to challenge the charges u have incurred rather than the whole debt as u will more often than not get a full refund for these charges if u push enough. Hope that helps.

 

What law Jay?

 

This sounds very obtuse even for a straw.

 

Mike

[soli2006]

My own loan was taken out just over two years ago. The paperwork they sent me in response to my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) was not complete - all we got was a bad photocopy of a letter i sent almost a year ago, a statement of account, a 'list' of phone calls & alleged home visits (we've never received one home visit), a list of letters sent (we've received three EVER) & a recently made out, unsigned loan agreement with the wrong home addresses on it. That was it. No reference to insurances, no explanation of 'fees', no record of the other 20-odd letters i've sent. No copies of all these letters they claim to have sent (surely if they 'know' they sent letters, they have copies?). Nothing. I've fired off a CCA today asking for a 'true copy' of the agreement. I'll see now what response i get to that. My guess is, they have nothing more to send me. Anyway, that shoots holes in the earlier posters comments that 'they only have to keep records for 3 years'. The advice on this forum has lifted my spirits no end, but it does all seem very conflicying & contradictory. If they cannot supply me with a 'true signed copy' in reply to mt CCA - what exactly are my rights then & how do i proceed. And should i be writing in to them about the incomplete information provided in resply to my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)?

[tamadus]

hello have been reading this thread and just wanted to make u all aware that although u do all seem to have good points one thing u have all missed is that if the original agreement was signed over 6 years ago the creditor is NOT obliged to hold a copy of said agree - the law actually stands that they have to keep a copy of agreement that is easily accessable for a period of 3 years, once this period has elapsed thay can then move the document to Microfiche and store it elsewhere in their archives - after 3 years there they are no longer legally required to keep a copy. i work for a solicitor that specialises in consumer debt recovery and believe me you have to work EXTREAMLEY hard to get a debt made "unenforceable" ur best bet is to challenge the charges u have incurred rather than the whole debt as u will more often than not get a full refund for these charges if u push enough. Hope that helps.

 

Jay this is totally wrong, for anybody to be able to rely on the terms of an agreement or contract then they have to be able to produce that agreement or contract. Failure to do so will immediately nullify it, make it void or make it unenforceable.

 

If your going to raise something in court then you have to be able to prove it. No evidence = no claim.

 

If this was true it immediately raises the possibility of for example me making a claim for non payment based on an alleged agreement signed say 5 years ago. I wouldnt have to produce anything according to your post except a statement of the account which should take me 5 minutes to compile.

 

The judge would not only rightly throw me and my claim out of court but would be laughing as he/she did.

 

There is a big difference between storing it so it is easily accessible and archiving it. Its only a matter of how long it takes to locate.

[soli2006]

tamadus - I was discussing just that point with a friend earlier today. I've seen posters say that a loan company only have to supply a 'copy of what such an agreement would have looked like'. Undoubtedly, any lender can demonstrate that money was paid into a customers account, or that (re)payments were made by that customer. But - i can't get my head around exactly how they can possibly enforce a contract WITHOUT that contract. My argument with my pal was just the same as yours - that i could, in theory, pick a name out of the phone book at random, send him a demand for money saying i made him a loan & then simply send him a copy of what 'the agreement would have looked like' to collect my money. I know common sense & the law don't always go hand-in-hand, but it seems to me that no copy of signed contract=no contract.

[tamadus]

tamadus - I was discussing just that point with a friend earlier today. I've seen posters say that a loan company only have to supply a 'copy of what such an agreement would have looked like'. Undoubtedly, any lender can demonstrate that money was paid into a customers account, or that (re)payments were made by that customer. But - i can't get my head around exactly how they can possibly enforce a contract WITHOUT that contract. My argument with my pal was just the same as yours - that i could, in theory, pick a name out of the phone book at random, send him a demand for money saying i made him a loan & then simply send him a copy of what 'the agreement would have looked like' to collect my money. I know common sense & the law don't always go hand-in-hand, but it seems to me that no copy of signed contract=no contract.

 

Thats exactly why the courts are unable to enforce it without the agreement properly executed. SI 1557 says they can exclude the signature box when responding to a sec.77/78 request but if they want to enforce it in court then they must have that piece of paper.

[tamadus]

If you want copies of statements and payments for the alleged loan I am sure they can be created in a matter of minutes.

[soli2006]

Thats exactly why the courts are unable to enforce it without the agreement properly executed. SI 1557 says they can exclude the signature box when responding to a sec.77/78 request but if they want to enforce it in court then they must have that piece of paper.

 

I was sent a 'copy' of the loan agreement in response to an SAR, not a CCA. Thats why i've sent a CCA request - so i'm following the correct procedures. Anyway, what i was sent DID have the signature (& witnesses) boxes visible - both empty. Also, the address of my co-borrower is wrong. This is obviously a form they have only just written out. Wheter they have a copy of the original signed agreement remains to be seen.

[veryannoyed]

I'm in an interesting case at the moment where the lender has sent the court a totally different signed contract to the one they have sent me under my CCA request! - thing is, the signatures are exact copies of each other (IE they have been photocopied on to one of the documents from the other)

I have written to the lender to ask which is the real contract, and are they therefore holding their hands up to perjury, by sending a false document to the court and claiming it to be true, or deception and fraud by sending me a false document in order to get money out of me...

Can't say much more at the moment as they read these forums, but will explain all when I get a result (unless they pay me lots to keep my mouth shut of course)

[Peterbard]

Thats exactly why the courts are unable to enforce it without the agreement properly executed. SI 1557 says they can exclude the signature box when responding to a sec.77/78 request but if they want to enforce it in court then they must have that piece of paper.

 

I Know i keep repeating myself but please keep in mind that this will only be the case until april next year when section 15 of the cca 2006 will remove 127(3)-(5)

 

Peter

__________________

[JULI99]

Wonder if anyone can advise.

 

I had a credit card with ppi added on every month but nowhere on the credit agreement or anywhere else was their even a mention of my having taken out insurance let alone signed authorisation. When I asked for proof I was sent a screen shot stating I had asked for insurance when I had applied for the credit card. On closer inspection the account number on the screen shot is for my loan account taken out years later.

I know I did not ask for insurance on the loan account so I sent a cca letter asking for a copy of my credit agreement, the 12 working days + the following month have now passed. Would a call to Trading Standards be my next port of call, and what can I do about the thoroughly misleading screen shot they have sent me. Do I have any recourse over this as this was a clearly made up piece of work.

 

Any help would be most appreciated.

 

juli99

[breadline]

Sent 2 letters to Lloyd's Gresham Street

Both CCA's, 1 for my current account was sent straight to my branch, the branch send me the £1 postal order back and my letter which has highlighter all over reading Statements not required cust asking for credit agreement, send to cust.

 

I receive a compliment slip, an Experian application form.

reading

I have enclosed an application form for your credit agreement

The fee is £2.00 postal order/Cheque Made Payable to Experian and sent to them Direct.

 

I'm annoyed but Im lmao as it just gets worse and their incompetence grows each day

 

:rolleyes: looks like they have no ideal what a CCA is just an SAR.

BL:)

[Number6]

I receive a compliment slip, an Experian application form.

reading

I have enclosed an application form for your credit agreement

The fee is £2.00 postal order/Cheque Made Payable to Experian and sent to them Direct.

 

I'm annoyed but Im lmao as it just gets worse and their incompetence grows each day

 

 

LOL, LOL.

 

They really have no clue do they?

 

Pete

[Matheos95]

Hi Just spent hours reading this thread great work guys, just after abit a guidance if you can.

 

I currently have CCA requests out to 3 companies all 3 went into default on the 15th Nov - I have only ever had a reply from one.....sent a CCA request off to Eversheds (DCA/Solicitor) for HFC they stated that the information I had requested (ie CCA) had been requested from their client but as the account was opened in 1998 and would have been archived may take some time to find. The the next paragraph goes on to state:

 

We can also advise that payments of the agreed amount should still be sent as per the arrangement, or legal action could be initiated. (Now the best bit) Our client wishes us to inform you that if they cannot provide you with this document you will still remain liable for the above amount as you have admitted liability by paying for the account for a long period.

 

True or not true? is this scare tactics or not any help pls

[Peterbard]

Not true section 77 states that the "debt" is unenforceable if the request is not complied with within the stated time.(12 days).

 

Liability has nothing to do with it at this stage you simply are exercising your right to view a copy of the agrement.

 

Petr

[soli2006]

I Know i keep repeating myself but please keep in mind that this will only be the case until april next year when section 15 of the cca 2006 will remove 127(3)-(5)

 

Peter

__________________

 

But will that apply to existing loans, or only to loans taken out after that date?

[soli2006]

Not true section 77 states that the "debt" is unenforceable if the request is not complied with within the stated time.(12 days).

 

Another CCA i sent was posted on 6th November, acknowledged on 8th witha letter saying 'account is on hold for 28 days whilst we investigate....etc'. Still heard nothing more and they are now clearly over the 12 days. As i understand it, i now have to wait another month (month + 2 days) before it becomes unenforceable, yes?

[Peterbard]

From the information i have recieved this will apply to all actions taken from 6th April 2007. logically any loan would have to have been in existance prior to this in order to have an action taken on it.

 

Regards Petr

[noomill060]

matheos- note that the solicitor who wrote this twaddle is quoting his client, the solicitor isnt saying this himself:

 

"Our client wishes us to inform you that if they cannot provide you..bla bla"

 

He clearly wished to distance himself from this blatant lie.

[Peterbard]

They are in default after not providing the info after 12 days and the debt is unenforceable at this time. After a further 30 days they are commiting a criminal offence and you can complain to the OFT and threaten them with court action.

The start date will be when they recieved the request which you should be able to get from the PO if your request was sent recorded.

Lots more info earlier in this thread

 

Regs

Peter

[Matheos95]

matheos- note that the solicitor who wrote this twaddle is quoting his client, the solicitor isnt saying this himself:

 

"Our client wishes us to inform you that if they cannot provide you..bla bla"

 

He clearly wished to distance himself from this blatant lie.

 

ty guys just wanted that second opinion had an idea what they were trying to get at but as stated in a thread before when your so close to something those little doubt gremlins start creeping in.

[Matheos95]

They are in default after not providing the info after 12 days and the debt is unenforceable at this time. After a further 30 days they are commiting a criminal offence and you can complain to the OFT and threaten them with court action.

The start date will be when they recieved the request which you should be able to get from the PO if your request was sent recorded.

Lots more info earlier in this thread

 

Regs

Peter

 

If thats for me Peter ty and yes done alot of reading I posted all 3 on the 30/10 all were recieved and signed for (according to royal mail) on the 31/10 an according to my reconing the went into default on the 15/11 and therefore 15/12 is when they are comitting the offence.

 

Cheers

 

Helen

[Peterbard]

No probs Helen

 

Good luck

 

Peter