SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[noomill060]

you up load you image and it gives you a URL which you cut and paste in here.

[joesoap]

On behalf of my son I CCA'd DG Sols (HSBC). It can't be located because of the age of the account and because the account is closed, they are not obliged to provide it anyway. I realise that may be the case but the account was only closed in Nov 2001 and at the very least they are supposed to retain records for 6 years, 7 for revenue purposes. Unknown to them, I have a copy of the agreement. It is signed by HSBC but would you believe, not by my son. Although the account was closed, is it worth taking this further.

[joesoap]

I've only got a 19" monitor, not a 42" widescreen tv. will somebody reduce the size of this display!

[noomill060]

A regulated agreement unsigned by the borrower is uneforceable under any circumstances.

[JonCris]

joe could you explain why you want a copy of the agreement - is your son being chased for money?

[noomill060]

As the account is now closed, why bother worrying about it?

[joesoap]

joe could you explain why you want a copy of the agreement - is your son being chased for money?

 

Yes JC he is. He has an arrangement to pay a small monthly token payment and DG Sols keep asking to "up it". The kid is not a well person and I pay this money. I did want the agreement to show if it had been executed correctly. I only have a copy of the front of the agreement and it indicates he took out insurance which was very unusual for him. As he has not signed the agreemnt I wondered if this was correct. Perhaps I should SAR? I'm just trying to sort out all of the family finances (as you may realise from my other questions regarding the CCJ) before I re - locate which is on the cards.

[hsbcfiddled]

Monday Junre 11th I handed in my letter for Request of 'true copy' at local HSBC and they stamped my letter that the £1.00 fee had been paid.

 

Been in my local branch again today and the staff told me that the person who received the letter thought that the £1.00 fee was an offer to 'pay off' the managed loan.....WELL they can keep it as 'full and final settlement' if they like because the last we were told managed loan was £14k.........?

 

They now know what it's for.....I bet they are searching frantically.

 

The clocks running HSBC ...I make it that they must supply it by latest July 26th....Am i correct?

[Fred_Funk]

Apologies for intervening but if anyone's able to take a look at the following thread...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/79616-fred_funk-hillesden-sec-ltd.html

 

... and comment on the letter I'm proposing to send to Black Horse - in light of their failure to respond to my CCA request - I'd be eternally grateful.

 

Thanks in anticipation

Fred_Funk

[zubo]

Yes JC he is. He has an arrangement to pay a small monthly token payment and DG Sols keep asking to "up it". The kid is not a well person and I pay this money. I did want the agreement to show if it had been executed correctly. I only have a copy of the front of the agreement and it indicates he took out insurance which was very unusual for him. As he has not signed the agreemnt I wondered if this was correct. Perhaps I should S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)? I'm just trying to sort out all of the family finances (as you may realise from my other questions regarding the CCJ) before I re - locate which is on the cards.

 

Joe

 

This is exactly the same bunch as I had the very same problem with in exact same circumstances.

 

Read my short thread here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/30162-debt-too-old-original.html

 

adopt the same letters and strategy.

 

I forced them to commit in writing to write off £6k of debt on 3 alleged agreements.

 

Go for it.

 

Z

[joesoap]

Joe

 

This is exactly the same bunch as I had the very same problem with in exact same circumstances.

 

Read my short thread here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/30162-debt-too-old-original.html

 

adopt the same letters and strategy.

 

I forced them to commit in writing to write off £6k of debt on 3 alleged agreements.

 

Go for it.

 

Z

 

Cheers for that Zubo, see you on the other side as eddieriff.

[joesoap]

Zubo, almost forgot. I only requested the CCA a couple of weeks ago so they've got some time to come up with it but as I've got an unsigned copy, they may not want to! As soon as time is up though, I will be firing the necessary off.

[saints12]

Hi all......sorry to jump into this thread but I need some info .

I requested a copy of my CCA and a copy of a alleged default that was placed on credit file. I recieved a letter within the 12 day timescale telling me that there lookin at my complaint? No it's a requested so they can't get that right anyway the letter stated that there were looking into things and would get back before the 10th July. I recieved another letter on the 9th July telling me there still looking at my complaint? and would be back in touch before the 9th August. So are they stalling for time , do not have the agreement and have they now commited an offence if so who do I write to regarding my concerns?

[singletracker]

Okay, first of all, when did you send the CCA request?

 

You need to calculate 12 working days (plus 2 for postage) - this is when account enters "dispute" and they have committed an offence under CCA. You then need to add a calendar month for that offence to then become a "criminal" offence (lots of discussions on threads regarding this terminology). At this point, you have them (debt uneforcable), they have not provided an agreement and if they do after that date they need to go to court to request to restart pursuit of this debt (at which point they have to explain to a judge that they failed to comply with your CCA request).

 

Don't accept their time schedule, you're right, it is a stalling tactic. The time schedule is laid down within the CCA legislation, so you are following the law, not the banks "We'll get back to you next century" schedule.

 

Good luck.

[saints12]

Its was posted on the 11th June recorded and was signed for on the 12th June.

[singletracker]

Okay, so the 12 working days plus 2 for postage gives us the 29th of June. Full calendar month makes that the 29th of July - a Sunday. I'd say that if there is nothing in the post by Mon 30th July, then they are in full default.

Your position currently is that they are in default and you can stop payments. If they produce before above date you will have to start again though.

If they do not produce it by the above date, then it is a "criminal" default and the debt is unenforcable. At this point you need to write to state that if they cannot produce the document, there cannot be a debt, therefore, remove defaults, record balance as £0 etc etc. Give them 7 days to comply. I'm also threatening court action, as I believe it is a £2500 fine or 3 months in prison per offence under CCA regs (read elsewhere on this site but not personally confirmed). Has anyone any evidence / further notes on this matter, or already done it and can offer further guidance for all (guidance through filing in court)?

[saints12]

Hi..sorry should have advised that theres no debt as I had paid this off in April 07 but now trying to remove the default.

[Peterbard]

HI single T

There are afew minor points about the informatin given that i think should be rectified.

After the initial 12 working days the agreement is in default and the creditor is not allowed to enforce the agreement, if he did, it would be unlawful not illegal it is a civil matter at this stage.

If the creditor produces the agrement any time after the initial 12 working days, the default is lifted and he is free to pursue the debt even after the 30 day additional period,no court order is nessesarry.

An offence is commited after the 44th day period and is suposed to be enforced by the OFT however they currently are reluctant to do so. To summerise the inability of the creditor to enforce the agreement is because of the default not the offence, if the default is lifted, due to production of the copy, after the offence period they are within their rights to enforce the agrement and pursue the debt.

The penalties for this offense and others relating to ethe Act are listed in the CCA section 193 Schedule 1.

Kind regards

Peter

[SteveH2508]

HI single T

There are afew minor points about the informatin given that i think should be rectified.

After the initial 12 working days the agreement is in default and the creditor is not allowed to enforce the agreement, if he did, it would be unlawful not illegal it is a civil matter at this stage.

If the creditor produces the agrement any time after the initial 12 working days, the default is lifted and he is free to pursue the debt even after the 30 day additional period,no court order is nessesarry.

An offence is commited after the 44th day period and is suposed to be enforced by the OFT however they currently are reluctant to do so. To summerise the inability of the creditor to enforce the agreement is because of the default not the offence, if the default is lifted, due to production of the copy, after the offence period they are within their rights to enforce the agrement and pursue the debt.

The penalties for this offense and others relating to ethe Act are listed in the CCA section 193 Schedule 1.

Kind regards

Peter

 

Peter

A spot on summary of the law with one small inaccuracy - the investigation and prosecution of the offence is down to the local Trading Standards Department not the OFT. The OFT have an overall view of the CCA74 and administer the licencing system. TS deal with the offences regarding 'day-to-day' matters.

 

I think it needs to be re-iterated that to comply with a S77/78 request there need to be the relevant statements of account given as well as the copy agreement. My understanding is that normal statements do not usually comply with S77/78 as they stand.

[singletracker]

Ok, so how do we work towards removing a default if the CCA has not been complied with?

I believe this was saints main concern - I was simply ensuring they kept to the correct schedulu.

[jalex_uk]

To summerise the inability of the creditor to enforce the agreement is because of the default not the offence, if the default is lifted, due to production of the copy, after the offence period they are within their rights to enforce the agrement and pursue the debt.

Kind regards

Peter

 

Peter, it is my understanding that irrespective of whether a Creditor can produce an agreement or not, after they have gone past the offence stage, the Agreement - and all rights the Creditor might have to enforce all or part of it - is rendered unenforceable without the Creditor seeking permission from a Court to make the Agreement enforceable once more.

 

Until or unless they do that, they are surely not within their rights to enforce any part of the agreement at all, as it has been rendered permanently unenforceable barring the intervention of a Judge on behalf of the Creditor.

[Monty2007]

Peter

A spot on summary of the law with one small inaccuracy - the investigation and prosecution of the offence is down to the local Trading Standards Department not the OFT. The OFT have an overall view of the CCA74 and administer the licencing system. TS deal with the offences regarding 'day-to-day' matters.

 

I think it needs to be re-iterated that to comply with a S77/78 request there need to be the relevant statements of account given as well as the copy agreement. My understanding is that normal statements do not usually comply with S77/78 as they stand.

 

Not so sure about this, my TS (Cambridge) say that the FOS is now the only avenue open to consmer issues, they no longer deal with it. No longer answer my e-mail or letters, that's it!

[SteveH2508]

Not so sure about this, my TS (Cambridge) say that the FOS is now the only avenue open to consmer issues, they no longer deal with it. No longer answer my e-mail or letters, that's it!

 

B*llsh*t - they are charged with enforcing the Consumer Credit Act. They are scared/under-resourced/can't be bothered. (Take your pick!)

 

Some TS departments who wish to make a name for themselves,will take on finance companies - some are all for the quiet life (a postcode lottery in spades I'm afraid).

 

At the end of the day,if the company gets prosecuted-convicted-fined it makes no real difference to your situation anyway. If you can screw them over for charges/unenforceable agreements or whatever - now that's satisfying!!

[singletracker]

Jalex, your understanding matches mine. If this is the case, can saint rightly tell CCA'd creditor to remove all info, including notice of default? My belief is yes, but others are muddying already murky waters. We need definites here, not arguing over the more minor details (no offence intended to anyone, just trying to keep this to the point of the question raised).

 

Is Saint able to request removal of all record of account, including removal of default if the CCA is not complied by the 30th of this month?

 

I have written to one creditor requesting removal of default on closed account as they are unable to provide a notice of default to me. Waiting for a reply.

Wrote to 2nd creditor who has failed to comply with CCA insisting debt is written off and all record of it removed, as they clearly cannot provide a copy of the agreement - CCA was up a month ago. Again, waiting for a response. Awaiting credit record info too, to see if any amendment has taken place.

As you can see, I am working towards a similar goal to Saint, but have pressed ahead and trying my luck. I'll report any developments, but any definite experience or knowledge of this area would be much appreciated, by myself, Saint and any others following this thread and pondering similar action.

[Monty2007]

B*llsh*t - they are charged with enforcing the Consumer Credit Act. They are scared/under-resourced/can't be bothered. (Take your pick!)

 

Some TS departments who wish to make a name for themselves,will take on finance companies - some are all for the quiet life (a postcode lottery in spades I'm afraid).

 

At the end of the day,if the company gets prosecuted-convicted-fined it makes no real difference to your situation anyway. If you can screw them over for charges/unenforceable agreements or whatever - now that's satisfying!!

 

Here is the exact text from Cambridge TS:

 

It would appear that Amex should provide you with something (!) but note the words "executed agreement (if any)". A colleague from another Trading Standards service is quite categorical in saying that what this means is that in the absence of sending a signed copy, they can send you a copy of an agreement that you did sign.

I presume that because you have been paying the debt collection agency you actually accept that you entered into these agreements and are looking to avoid further re-payment as a consequence of alleged non-compliance with Section 78.

Whatever your motives for asking them to comply, I would suggest that you raise your enquiry/complaint formally with the Financial Ombudsman Sevice, who since April 2007 became responsible for dealing with complaints in relation to consumer credit agreements. As experts in the field I am sure they will be able to assist you further and, for ease of reference, their link is below:

FAQs - changes in consumer-credit complaints-handling

Best wishes