SLC Cannot Supply The Original Agreement

[conchy_joe]

hi pliny,the only counter claim i have is the one that most of us use, and that is the CCA, it does seem to me that it seems to solve a lot of debt problems. i'm not sure what i would do if they were to defend the action or indeed say that "we're taking you to court".also i don't know what the difference is between a company who has bought the debt and someone acting as an agent.basically in a very few years i've come from a position when i had a clear and shining credit history to one where i'm trying to survive.i'm really grateful for any help i can get. B.O.S are acting for the bank of scotland and L.D.C are owned (i believe) by littlewoods.but as i said i've heard nothing from them since i sent the 1st letters on 15 may and i'm not sure what the silence might mean.

[Peterbard]

Hi C

I don't know if this helps but u=it is from section 189 of the act

 

“creditor” means the person providing credit under a consumer credit agreement or the person to whom his rights and duties under the agreement have passed by assignment or operation of law, and in relation to a prospective consumer credit agreement, includes the prospective creditor;

 

Regards

Peter

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

ConchY

 

Write & ask "for the avoidance of doubt could you please clarify your involvement in this matter between me & so & so"

[Peterbard]

Hi

The letter to the DTI has been reposted to all responses will also be posted here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/93663-letters-dti-oft-regarding.html#post860953

Regards

Peter

[noomill060]

I would provide my details as well, but I havent got to the reporting to the OFT stage yet.

 

I havent been hassled by Barclaycrud since they got my s.78 request (last October), but I've sent them a s.10 notice to try and get the default off my credit record.

 

Can I still claim my charges back using the CAG template letter despite there being no contract to be in breach of?

[Peterbard]

HI

In my opinion yes

 

They have no proof you agreed to pay any interest or at what rate.

 

Regards

Peter

[noomill060]

Thanks Pete.

 

Should I use the CAG template? Or write one myself, removing reference to unlawful penalty charges for breach of contract?

[noomill060]

Unfair Trading Regulations 2007

 

This looks promising, Peter.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft931con.pdf

[noomill060]

Check out page 49 with regards to unenforceable debt collection.

 

A new offence.

[rhsymonds]

Thanks for that noomill, ive woven it into my reply to HSBC, please check my thread out and let me know what you think......http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/89914-rhsymonds-hsbc-managed-loan.html#post909627

 

Cheers

[Yasmin]

Hi I need to send letter of complaint to Trading Standards, and OFT re. company not being able to supply the original agreement, and continuing to process my data etc. Does anyone know of a letter

I could use as a guideline, link would be appreciated. Have just been searching and can't find anything! Just one of those days.

 

Yasmin

[Jeff2000]

Hi Yasmin,

 

 

If you wish, you may use this letter that I sent to TS as a template.

 

Simply remove the parts not relevant, and add your own parts as you see fit.

 

Hope it helps!

 

 

Dear XXXX

I am writing to you in response to you email dated XXXXXX.

I will restate my original complaint and enquiry, and add further information where I feel this may be of some assistance. I have also included some correspondences between XXXXX XXXXX and myself. Letters originating from XXXXX XXXXX are marked A to E. Letters originating from myself are marked 1, 2 and 3.

As you are now aware, I wrote to a debt management company called XXXXX XXXXX on XXXXXX (Letter 1). This was in response to a letter from XXXXX XXXXX on XXXXXX (letter A). The nature of my correspondence to this company was to request a "true copy of a fully executed credit agreement" under S77-S79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which I believe is my right. This company acknowledged my request in a letter dated XXXXXX (Letter B). This company, in the same letter, claim that S77-S79 of the CCA 1974 does not apply to them! Yet they are a debt management company licensed under the CCA 1974. Furthermore they have retained the statutory £1.00 fee for this request.

As you no doubt are aware, when such a request is made, the recipient of such a request whether they are the original creditor or not, have 12 working days to provide such an agreement. If this is not complied with, then the recipient is in default and can no longer enforce the agreement. If the default continues for 1 month, then an offence has been committed.

Today is XXXXXX and so far no credit agreement as been provided to me. The CCA request to XXXXX XXXXX defaulted on XXXXX, and XXXXX XXXXX committed an offence on XXXXXX.

Since XXXXX XXXXX have defaulted on my request, I have received further correspondence from them (Letters C and E). These correspondences either threaten some form of further recovery action, or again attempts to collect monies on an alleged debt whilst in default of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I wrote to XXXXX XXXXX in a letter dated XXXXXX (Letter 2). In this letter I have pointed out to them of their default to my request. In response they have simply re-sent a copy of a letter they sent to me dated XXXXXX (Letter D). Also, if you notice, the outstanding balance is £1.00 less on the latter letter. Therefore it is not too difficult to see what they have used my statutory £1.00 fee for! This despite my instructions for the use of this money in my letter dated XXXXXX (Letter 1).

I therefore wish to complain of the conduct of this company, and its methods of attempting to collect on alleged debts whilst in default of the CCA 1974. My objections are to either have XXXXX XXXXX to supply me with the documents requested, as is their duty, or write to me and inform me that no such documents are available and no further action regarding this matter will be taken.

Please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address should you require any further assistance.

Yours sincerely

 

 

Best wishes, Jeff.

[Yasmin]

Thanks for the quick response, Jeff. I'm sure it will help. Better get on with it, keep delaying......

[noomill060]

Had a suprise yesterday.

 

Wescot have sent me a scary final demand letter!

 

This spurred me into phoning Trading Standards to confirm that the application form I recieved in response to my CCA letter.

 

The guy I spoke to asked me what was on the letter with regards to the precribed terms.

 

My signature- yes, in a box with "this a credit agreement" in it.

 

Their signature- no

 

APR- no

 

terms and conditions- no

 

Rights and obligations -no

 

Cooling off period -no

 

Anything else vaguely mentioned in the Act- no

 

Just my name and address, date of birth, financial details, bank ac number, "would I like PPI?", "would I like to transfer a balance?"

 

 

Reckons its just an application form, but I've sent it off to him to check out.

[thomass1949]

Hi some advice please. On the 30th of May I sent requests for loan agreements from Lloyds and Natwest. This means the 12 days have expired. I know that Lloyds do not have a copy, please see my thread re this issue and to date I haven't heard from Natwest. Do I write them stating that I will not be paying any more payments or do I wait until after the 30 days which will be I think, the 30th June. Am I correct? After which the loans are unenforceable. Please excuse because I'm a bit thick now as Iam getting a few!! grey hairs and my brain seems to becoming more impeded. Is it possible to get my repayments back or just not pay. How can I ensure that the debts will not be sold on or given to DCA's. Please help!!!

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

The creditor lost the right to enforce the agreement at 12 working days after the day they received your request

 

its not 30 days total, its 12 working days + 30 calendar days until an offence

 

Technically, you could stop paying at 12 working days

 

Did you send the request via recorded mail/special delivery? this will be essential if you wish to follow this through properly

 

Leaving it to 12 working days + 30 days is generally seen as the best way, as you are seen to be reasonable and give them every opportunity prior to taking action

 

All the above is covered within this thread and the 'consumer credit agreements' thread - they are long, but there is a lot to be gained from investing the time and reading through them

[thomass1949]

Hi ncf355. Thanks for that. Yes I always send everything by record mail. I have also noted down in my diary all the telephone conversations I have had with the bank manager at LLoyds regarding this and the PPI's I am claiming refunds for. I know what tricky B's they are. I will certainly spend time looking through the threads. Please translate the Latin, my degree is in English language so I don't have much knowledge of Latin.

[noomill060]

The Latin is part of ncf's sig. I opine that this is not part of any advice directed at yourself.

 

Veni vedi velcro

 

(I came, I saw, I stuck around)

[Holdred]

Hi folks,

 

Just a quick question as this is all quite new to me, does this only cover Credit Cards/Loans or could this be used for an Overdraft now being dealt with by Westcott?

[ian1969uk]

It can't be used with overdrafts, sorry.

[conchy_joe]

I need help pretty badly guys,I'm already well past the 12days/1 month period with reliable collections,and i'm sending off complaint to OFT tomorrow.What worries me is that the 1 month period is up for B.O.S and littlewoods dc on saturday.So far i've heard nothing at all from either of them,not a blank copy of the CA or even a phone call,it's as if they are waiting for the bailiff's bill on wednesday.Should i just wait or perhaps phone them.You see even if they do not comply after the 1 month period i'm unsure of my next action.I don't know how to go about court action with dca's.Banks are childs play compared to this.Is the failure to comply within the 12days/1month period a complete defense or is there way around it for the dca's.the fact that you can be paying off a debt for a few years and all of a sudden find a reason not to continue seems almost to good to be true.And i think many more dca's will attempt avail themselves of the new "right of entry " law...help badly needed..

[soli2006]

Hi everyone. Just getting back to the original thread topic – loan company not supplying a copy of agreement. I need some advice please. It concerns a credit card company & an alleged debt of about £620 or so. I sent a CCA request to the DCA acting on behalf of the credit card company. Their 12 days to comply came and went a while ago – in fact it was due to reach the “criminal offence” stage on 30th June. On Saturday (23rd June) I received what I’d been asking for (sigh….) & it appears to be genuine. So, they have now supplied a copy of the original agreement, all properly signed & everything BUT obviously after the 12 day period. Where does that leave me? Do I now have to make arrangements to pay, or do they now need to get a court to “re-enforce” the agreement that became unenforceable after the expiry of the original 12 day? What advice would other forum members with more knowledge than me give? Also – I requested a deed of assignment. What they have supplied is a copy of a letter from the original credit card company saying that they’ve sold the debt to the DCA. Does that constitute a deed of assignment, or is there an actual legal document I should be demanding? Finally, the DCA have also provided a statement of account – most of the “debt” is made up of interest charges, late payment charges, etc. imposed by the credit card company. The original debt is little more than £200 (I only had a credit limit on this card of £250). Finally, if it reached the point of settling, I’ve read somewhere that most DCA’s buy debts at about 5 to 7% of their value – so this one probably cost them £30 - £70 maximum. Would it be worth making a seemingly ridiculous offer of payment? All advice gratefully received.

[zubo]

I need help pretty badly guys,I'm already well past the 12days/1 month period with reliable collections,and i'm sending off complaint to OFT tomorrow.What worries me is that the 1 month period is up for B.O.S and littlewoods dc on saturday.So far i've heard nothing at all from either of them,not a blank copy of the CA or even a phone call,it's as if they are waiting for the bailiff's bill on wednesday.Should i just wait or perhaps phone them.You see even if they do not comply after the 1 month period i'm unsure of my next action.I don't know how to go about court action with dca's.Banks are childs play compared to this.Is the failure to comply within the 12days/1month period a complete defense or is there way around it for the dca's.the fact that you can be paying off a debt for a few years and all of a sudden find a reason not to continue seems almost to good to be true.And i think many more dca's will attempt avail themselves of the new "right of entry " law...help badly needed..

 

CJ

 

Relax.

 

I cannot quite see where you think a bailiff with the new magical powers of forced entry will appear from...

A bailiff has to be instructed by a Court to do what you are talking about NOT be appointed by a DCA. So let us dispel that myth.

It also might benefit you to read this

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources.html

 

Now... I have forced a DCA to set to zero all balances on three agreements he did not have - and that was after I had been paying £x pm for 3 years... before realizing my rights. These were all loans.

 

The CCA provides a complete defense regardless of payments/transactions etc etc. The strategy is to get the alleged debt to the point of being unenforceable. Choices at this point are very experimental and a number of strategies are being developed, but I am not going to reveal those to any MIB who might be reading this. PM me for more.

 

Most people currently are in a Mexican Standoff waiting to see what happens next - this suits a CCP because it gives them time to search for the alleged agreement, but we are finding even when they do find the alleged agreement - it is often either a pre-contractual application = NOT an agreement or the alleged agreement is fatally flawed - ie unenforceable.

 

So, don't panic, follow the process, if they have exceeded the allowed time then raise a formal complaint with ICO and OFT.

 

Z

[hsbcfiddled]

Sorry guys n gals but where can i find the very latest SAR for the providing of the original loan agreement.

 

This thread is so long although very interesting but its so hard to remember or find the important pieces in the thread that people starting out with a rquest require.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

hsbcfidsdled

[spiritgirl59]

Hiya Fiddled

 

Here are the letters I have used :-

 

1. CCA Request (for a copy of the alleged loan agreement)

 

 

Your address details

 

Recorded Delivery

U R Grabbers plc

(their address)

 

(Date)

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Ref:

 

 

With reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request. I enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

(Your name)

 

Enc. £1 postal order

 

 

 

 

2. S.A.R. Request (for a copy of all information relating to the account so that you can then work out the unlawful charges)

 

 

 

Your address

 

Recorded Delivery

U R Grabbers plc

(their address)

 

 

(Date)

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request – Your Ref:

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my lending history with your organisation with regards to the above account.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you. This includes full disclosure of any notes of telephone conversations you have had with me.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

(Your name)

 

 

Enc: £10.00 postal order

 

Remember they have to send you a copy of the properly executed agreement before you need to S.A.R. them. There are lots of threads on the forum about what a properly executed agreement should contain.

 

I am not legally qualified, I only tell you this through my own past experience with DCAs but personally if they cannot supply you with that then they are in breach of the CCA and I personally would not waste £10 on an S.A.R. Any who have not responded to my CCA request (and who continue to harrass me) I have challenged them with a CCA non-response letter as follows:-

 

Recorded Delivery

U R A Bent firm plc

 

(Date)

 

Dear Sirs

 

Ref:

I refer to your “Final Notice” dated XXXX in which you state that it essential that I telephone your office immediately. I will not be telephoning your office. (obviously adjust this paragraph depending on what rubbish they have sent you following their default)

 

On XXXX I wrote to you requesting a copy of the credit agreement you hold in my name, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79). On XXXX a member of your staff signed for delivery of my written request, and I have an electronic proof of delivery showing his/her signature and the date. This is where your recorded delivery comes in as you can check when they signed for the CCA request on the Royal Mail website under track and trace.

 

A copy of the credit agreement should have then been supplied to me within 12 working days.

 

The general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner (in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

To date you have failed to respond to my request.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that allegedly exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law. I have made a reasonable and lawful request for a true signed copy allowed by the Act. Indeed, The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) states that “if a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due.

 

I must advise you that any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account.

 

I expect no other communication from you in respect of this matter except for confirmation of compliance with my requests.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

(your name)

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps!

Love Spiritgirl x