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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Civil Enforcement Ltd (again!)


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Hi, all. I received my CEL letter in August last year and have been bombarded with letters ever since, from both CEL & Newlyn. Has anyone ever been taken to court yet? I've not seen or read a thread where anyone has, but I am curious.

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Hi

 

This is my first ever forray into the world of internet forums so bear with me......... it has taken a few minutes to get registerd and understand the links.

 

Like tictactoe's mother I was "caught" in the Colton Retail park parking [problem] having spent over 3 hours there (all in Sainsburys actually!)Upon receiving the notice I had already worked out that I would respond with many of the comments regarding inappropriate use of CCTV number plate recognition, invoices that look like parking tickets etc. but can see that this has all been done before and to no avail. I will almost certainly follow previous advice, refuse to pay and refer debt collectors back to CEL saying that the invoice is in dispute! I may actually spend the £25 offered by "Law Answers" on their site to get them off my back as I know I will continue to be frustrated if continually harassed by further letters! Has anyone any experience of their "service"?

 

Next - how to damage these pirates............... is there perhaps a way that through these forums we could find out where these guys operate and simply boycott the premesis (Or make sure that they do not catch people by warning them)cash shortfalls will quickly cause them to fold! I for one will not use McDonalds in Gatwick looking at the number of postings and will certainly NEVER visit Colton retail park again. As another thought, how about us contacting the retailers involved. I have just written to J Sainsburys saying how disgusted I am that a company if their standing is either using such enforcement companies or accepting their use on sites where they are operating stores. I am sure that a company that large must have some sway to get CEL slung off! As these retailers are encouraging customers to stay longer (bigger stores, cafe's etc)then this is a real problem. If we highlight this and vote with our feet then I am sure that CEL can be sent "bust" by their own clients. Retailers are very conscious of their reputation and I have threatened never to visit Sainsburys again until I receive a satifactory response. Immagine hundreds of such letters to messers Sainsbury's McDonalds etc!

 

good luck everyone with telling CEL where to get off.........

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AtchiP,

 

I understand your frustration, I too came on to these forums in righteous indignation having received one of these bogus tickets.

 

Like much that happens in this country, the whole private parking thing is wrong headed.

 

Retailers abdicate their responsibility to manage their own car parks to these private companies. The management is meant to be self financing, the PPC getting their income from "fines". Sometimes the retailers get a kick back from the PPC from each "fine" paid.

 

If the car park "problems" were actually sorted, there would be no overstays, no non customer parking, no income for the PPC. The PPCs only survive by ensuring that the problems are not resolved, ensuring a residual level of "fines" income for them. In other words, they are paid a premium for mis-managing car parks.

 

By the way, lamma is right about the £25. I'm embarressed to say that I used the service for my first ticket. I was working away from home at the time and was worried that dodgy debt collectors might call round at the house. I did not want to put my wife through the hassle. Now that I know a bit more, I realise that I was taking these [problematic] far too seriously. Personal visits really are very very rare and are easily dealt with.

 

In its defence, the service does work, but then so do the other methods which have the advantage of being £25 cheaper.

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The problem is that people are treated like idiots. People know how to use a car park. Staying 4 hours instead of 2 is hardly the end of the world. Companies complain that 'customers suffer' which is codswallop. It's all an exercise in making money.

 

People respond a lot more positively to a sign explaining WHY they shouldn't park in a disabled spot. It's inconsiderate and makes life hard for those less well off. "Park here and you will get a £40 fine" is using a sledgehammer to miss a nut.

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Hi. Another first time participant.

Civil Enforcement Ltd, carpark in Chingford and staying 10 minutes over the 2 hour no charge period - need I say anymore! This happened in February, I got a letter from CEL at the end of March and I replied using the standard letter of 'please don't contact the registered owner etc'. Things went quiet. Now I have received 2 letters from Newlyn dated 05/06/08 and 16/06/08 to the effect that the matter has been passed to them and they require payment now of £165 to avoid going to the County Court and incurring more charges. Should I be worried that I ahve received 2 letters within 2 weeks? I have been reassured by the posts on here so far and understand the implications of contract law, I just don't appreciate the frequency of the letters from Newlyn. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Don't worry. 2 letters in 2 weeks show they're getting desperate. The fact you responded in the first place would have put you on the hooked fish list.

 

If you respond now again then their eyes will light up and know their letters are getting to someone. They don't want to deal with the invisible man - they're just banging their head against a wall and will have to give up.

 

They won't take you to court.

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Now I have received 2 letters from Newlyn dated 05/06/08 and 16/06/08 to the effect that the matter has been passed to them and they require payment now of £165 to avoid going to the County Court and incurring more charges. Should I be worried that I ahve received 2 letters within 2 weeks?

 

 

No, I wouldn't be worried - standard procedure in my experience.

 

I too have received the same letters (last one sent in April) - I have never replied (didn't want to acknowlege that I exist - the 'hooked fish' syndrome! - I simply ignored and have been waiting for the court summonds - lol :lol:

 

I think they send two letters in quick succession in the hope that this will harrass sufficiently to intimidate into paying.

 

As things have gone quiet for me now for more that 3 months, I guess they've given up on me and moved onto others!?

 

Will post back if I get a summonds - lol

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On balance guys what is your opinion?

 

1. completely ignore all the letters threats from Newlyn etc. or

2. Reply using the templetse on the stickies

 

Have not had the time to bother yet but have written to J Sainsbury (head office) saying that I am disgusted and will not darken their door again etc............... I will post any response.

 

How abpout CEL, do I bother to respond?

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Completely ignore. They aren't going to stop harrassing you just because you send them a template letter - quite the reverse. If you respond they know their letters are reaching someone or is rattled enough to reply and therefore could possibly become rattled enough to pay up.

If you don't respond they'll give up quicker.

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Completely ignore. They aren't going to stop harrassing you just because you send them a template letter - quite the reverse. If you respond they know their letters are reaching someone or is rattled enough to reply and therefore could possibly become rattled enough to pay up.

If you don't respond they'll give up quicker.

 

 

I second that - ignoring has worked for me - lol :lol:

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I was also noticed to park over 2 hours in the co-op - and I shop there evry week - no longer!

 

Got the contravention notice for 40 quid now or 80 quid in a month - denied in writing that i personally parked there.

 

Received a letter back falsly stating that as keeper i am responsible for the fine. Ignored it - Several letters threatening court action - total is now about 200 pounds.

 

Have not heard from them in 4 months and no court action.

 

Just stand your ground. You'll be ok - and never pay the blood sucking leeches.

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Yep, there is no 'appeals process'. You will always get a letter back saying you still have to pay, usually with false and fraudulent declarations of owner liablity.

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Correct. When these people get an appeal their shifty little eyes light up as they know there is a fish at the end of the hook and they have rattled somebody.

 

If you ignore them they get very miffed they're not getting a response as that means no money for them.

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I have sent this letter:-

 

Dear Sirs

 

RE: xxxxxxxx PCN NO. xxxxxxxxx Parking Charge Issue Date: xx/06/2008

 

 

As you have stated in your letter that our client is responsible for the payment of the Parking Charge and we have confirmed to you that our client denies liability to you in any way , our client demands that you institute legal proceedings within 14 days . Our client will submit a defence to your claim and hold you liable for costs incurred as a consequence of and arising as a result of your letter.

 

 

 

 

In accordance with the civil procedure rules, please send us evidence of:

  • 1. The establishment of any contract between our client and yourselves ,
  • 2. The identity of the driver ( including any photographic evidence of parking by our client in the alleged space ) and
  • 3. Your entitlement to collect any money whatsoever.

Neither our client nor us will deal with you or your agents if you fail to issue proceedings.

 

 

In the absence of legal proceedings our client will regard any further contact from you or your agents as harassment.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited by weblawyer
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Help ....getting my self in a tiswas :Cry:

 

I have now sent two letters to CEL following the tempates - the last letter sent two days ago requesting evidence that I as RK was driving, stating that the contract is between the driver and the landowner and stateing that I welcome the oportunity to see them in court as they will not be able to provide the evidence that I was driving.

(there is no way that they can prove I was driving as I wasn't - I have ME and can not drive very far, let alone to the carpark they are refering)

 

However the thing I am getting my self in a tiswas about is that I was told by the Police that it is a Civil matter and therefore can not be brought to County Court ....is this right?? (as I've stated this in the letter)

 

Also my semi retired Mum works for a letting agency and comes across loads of people who have CCJ's and apparently don't know that they have them until reference/credit check is done .... is that possibe?

 

I'm worried that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing and that I will get a CCJ without me knowing about it ..... please help this is playing ahvock with my health :Cry:

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Help ....getting my self in a tiswas :Cry:

 

I have now sent two letters to CEL following the tempates - the last letter sent two days ago requesting evidence that I as RK was driving, stating that the contract is between the driver and the landowner and stateing that I welcome the oportunity to see them in court as they will not be able to provide the evidence that I was driving.

(there is no way that they can prove I was driving as I wasn't - I have ME and can not drive very far, let alone to the carpark they are refering)

 

However the thing I am getting my self in a tiswas about is that I was told by the Police that it is a Civil matter and therefore can not be brought to County Court ....is this right?? (as I've stated this in the letter)

 

If the police told you this they are mistaken.

If what the police told you is that civil matters cannot come before Crown Courts or Magistrates Courts (few exceptions) then they are correct.

County Courts is exactly where most civil cases come.

 

Also my semi retired Mum works for a letting agency and comes across loads of people who have CCJ's and apparently don't know that they have them until reference/credit check is done .... is that possibe?

 

Given that you say your Mum works for a letting agency, I suspect that the people you are talking about are people who change addresses frequently. Papers may have been delivered to an old address and the individual never heard about it. That is how this sort of thing can arise.

 

I'm worried that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing and that I will get a CCJ without me knowing about it ..... please help this is playing ahvock with my health :Cry:

 

Don't let it get to you. You won't get a CCJ without knowing about it if you keep up to date with correspondence and stuff. I'm afraid that your reaction is what these people rely on. Just take comfort in the support from here!

********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Thanks Bernie .... good to know I have the support from here :D My OH is being as much help and support in this as a chocolate tea pot :Cry:

 

This is the wording of the latest letter that I have sent them, I know that I have got it wrong about the County Court thing but I am now getting worried that my letter will strengthen their resolve (especialy the paragraph about the County Court) ...... I will feel much happier if I know what likely response I am to get from them, then I can be prepared.

 

Could you cast your expert eye over the wording, I know its like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted but as I said I like to prepare myself.

 

I note that you appear to claim that I, as registered keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt which I refute.

In order to substantiate this claim please provide me with copies of the appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.

 

I understand that this alleged debt is for a breach of a parking contract. For your clarification according to contract law a contract is between the two parties entering the contract and no third parties can be held accountable. In this case the contract is between the land owner and the driver of the vehicle NOT the registered keeper of the vehicle which in contract law stands as the third party.

If you insist on pursuing this matter with me please provide evidence that I, as the registered keeper was driving the vehicle on the day in question.

Incidentally in the eyes of the law this is a civil matter as no offence has been committed. Civil matters cannot be held in a County Court, however if you have found some legislation that permits this I would be interested to hear of it, and so no doubt would my solicitor.

I will welcome the opportunity to defend your allegation in court and am confident of success. Of course you will be required to produce the evidence that I have requested and you will have failed to provide. You will also have to answer to the court why you failed to do so.

As per my previous letter please do not correspond with me any further on this matter except to confirm that you will be not taking the matter any further with me as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Sorry to need so much reassurance on this but its really getting to me :Cry:

 

Thanks in anticipation of your help :)

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Herbie,

 

Your letter looks really good. I'd send it recorded delivery so they can't claim they haven't received it.

 

They'll probably spurt a load of their bumf at you which you can safely ignore. Don't throw it away file it somewhere safe. It will provide evidence if you want to persue a harassment complaint or in the very unlikely event they take you to court.

 

Just to reiterate ignore anything short of court papers, which are extremely unlikely to appear, and get on with your life.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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Herbie,

 

As you've acknowledged, the county court thing is not right. However, ignoring this minor matter, the gist of your letter is absolutely fine - put up or shut up - stop bothering me or take me to court.

 

Don't worry - they won't. As Pin1onu has said, no need to respond to anything further but keep any further letters you receive.

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