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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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I need your help! Do you have any old T&Cs?


HSBCrusher
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Hello all. Well as I stated in an earlier post, I wasn't holding my breath, and sure enough, HSBC didn't deliver. Here's a scan of the letter I got in return.

...

Sorry they weren't more useful! Feel free to pester the phone number at the bottom of it and see if you can get better results though!

 

r-t-v

 

RTV - may I suggest you write to HSBC head office and ask them to supply the T&Cs, referring to the reply you have had from the call centre manager, and asking whether they would like to comment on the claim that it is impossible to supply them.

If they refuse a second time - and at the top level - then the story might be of interest to the media. Even if they don't get back to you, they would look pretty bad with one refusal already on record...

stax

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CM would the freedom of information act cover? dont know enough about it to be sure............:!:

 

To be honest i dont know anything about that, but surely somewhere there has to be records of all the T & C's. Dont expect help from the banks.

 

CM

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GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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Does anyone know when the collected T&Cs will be made available, I have to submit my witness statement and supporting evidence (so Im just sending the whole court bundle) in for the 11th June. I opened my account in April 2002. Unfortunately Ive moved 3 times and lost track of old paper work so Im having to rely on you guys that someone else out there has a copy!

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Has anyone come across t/c's for 1989? Rang bank like others have done andtold the same (not keeping them). Have requested copy of my "contract" i signed when I opened account - just in case anything stated on that.

Thank

Sha

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I have been told these t &c's are from 94

 

As the ragged sheepshank said - I'm afraid not! :(

 

Those are the new ones from December 2006 - containing the new story about informal overdraft requests and, er, 'overdraft review fees'.:rolleyes:

 

Hi Rob,

 

Funny that I got exactly the same letter telling me that the T & C for 1995 are no longer ava and here is the most uptodate!!!!!

 

suppose Have no option but to include them in my court bundle as they are the only ones I have:!:

 

NO! you must get some older ones - even if not from the time you opened your account!

 

Here's what is available so far, pending the CAG admins getting some up on the forum. They are all relevant and you may as well include them all:

 

1997 (extract sent by DG on behalf of HSBC):

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/55086-stax68-hsbc.html#post846275

 

2004,2005:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/90721-i-need-your-help.html#post840881

 

cheers, stax

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I'm digging around in the attic to see if I've kept my old T&C from 1995.

A quick question: If the T & C are amended during the life of an account, are these changes also applicable to the operation of the account. For example do the T & C say somewhere that they are "subject to change without notice". In which case would one need to include every revision in any legal documentation supporting a claim?

Nick D Mymoney

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I've been trying to get an answer to this, but in the meantime everything points towards the fact that all the T&Cs are relevant.

 

First, the agreements are open-ended and either side can terminate on giving the appropriate notice - so it's not obviously totally unjust to vary the T&Cs.

 

Second, the T&Cs I have say that HSBC may vary the T&Cs with 30 day's notice, and you may terminate without any extra charges or interest within 60 days of being informed of disadvantageous changes. There might be some reason why this is invalid or inapplicable, but I haven't found one.

 

Third, this interesting thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/27632-phoenix-hsbc.html#post325256 has an account of a district judge's opinion on the matter.

 

So in general, I think it's fairly clear that - as you would expect - changes to the T&Cs do have effect during the relevant period.

 

There might be a kind of 'exception' to this, if the Unfair Terms in Consumer contracts Regulations (UTCCRs) apply only to the T&Cs in operation at the start of the contract. But they apply to terms, rather than only to whole contracts (the clue's in the name!), so I'd have thought that they apply to any new or amended terms introduced after mid-1995, when the first lot of UTCCRs took effect.

 

There's then also the question of whether the first introduction of a new set of T&Cs after mid-95 could mean that the UTCCRs would start to apply to all terms in the new T&Cs, including those that are unchanged - perhaps because the revised terms mean that technically speaking, a new contract is entered into? I have no good information on this, but I suspect the answer is the regs would apply only to new or amended terms.

 

Perhaps a suitably well-informed mod could help us out?

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Right then, am I right in thinking that the t&c's I have printed out are not good enough for the bundle? Should I remove them and add others or leave them in and add others? Please tell me very quickly as I am sending them tomorrow!:confused::)

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Hi

Does above posts mean that we T/C's for every period in the 6 yr span--my Barclaycard was from 1999 but 1999 T/C's didn't charge then-not till mid 2001-does that mean charges are unlawful!!

 

Chelsea

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Hi all,

 

I have another link for you I have not checked all the previous posts to see if you already have as it seemed urgentish hope it helps.

 

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/PA_1_5_S5/content/uk/pdfs/en/personalbankingterms_conditions.pdf;jsessionid=0000Vubrqb_8pvQNOpzopP1u1Xs:11j5bfvdu

I have no legal training and the advice I offer is a matter of support. Before you commit to any Legal action you are advised to contact a qualified legal practitioner.

------------------------------------------------

Bank charge successes:

Halifax - Full settlement incl interest.

HSBC - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 75% of claim.

RBS - Settlement, goodwill no admission of liability about 70% of claim.

2 ongoing claims for bank charges with HSBC with more to come. (Supreme Court ruling could have upset these claims) They did :mad:

PPI Successes

PPI 4 settlements on 9 loans. FOS involvement on 7 added on the 8 % Statutory interest another 30% to both.

2 claims settled in full with LV without FOS involvement.

2 claims settled in full with HSBC without FOS involvement

 

PPI Claims ongoing with:

Cap one Now with the FOS

Barclays. Paid up today 24/04/10 cheque received for over £4,500 and in the bank.

LTSB still have to decide on this as their SAR production was abysmal. Papers data mixed up documents missing etc

 

1 Complaint not upheld by FOS they said it was ICO issue. Complaint upheld by ICO. See this..

Post 290 from

***RBS PPI Claim Long fight but, WON***

 

Please do not PM me for advice as it may be sometime before I can respond.

 

Keep at them. Do not give way and do not accept all they tell you, they will delay and stall for as long as they can to prevent repaying you your mis-sold PPI.

 

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I dont Know if it is any use but i have a letter of terms and conditions from an overdraft that we took out in 1996 when it was midland

 

Terms and conditions for overdraft 27 November 1996

1 Your facility, like all overdraft facilities, is an on-demand form of borrowing. This means that we have the right, at any time ,even befor the review date , to withdraw your facility and/or write to you demanding immediate repayment of the overdrawn balance of your account,together with accrued interest,fees and any charges

 

2 Because your facility is a variable rate overdraft, we may,at our discretion, change any of our interest rates by notice in the national press and our branches or by writing to you. The changes will apply from the date given in the notice.

 

3 You may cancel your overdraft facility at any time by repaying the overdrawn balance of your account together with accrued interest and any charges, and writing to us telling us you wish to cancel. There is no fee for cancelling the facility

 

4 If we renew your facility in future, a renewal fee may be payable. we will tell you the amount of this fee, if any,before we deduct it from your account.

 

5 Interest will be calculated daily on the cleared balance of your account. Interest and fees will be deducted from your account 14 days after your monthly charges calculation date which we will set or agree with you. A statement of the interest and fees if any to be deducted will be sent to you on your monthly charges calculation date

 

6 In this letter, to calculate whether any fees are payable, 'month' means the period between one monthly charges calculation date and the next.

 

7 If your overdraft limit is exceeded, interest will be charged at Midland's standard debit interest rate which is currently 24.6% a year on any amount over your limit. An extra fee of £10 will also be charged for any month when the balance of your account exceeds your limit, whether for one day or more.

 

8 We reserve the right to return unpaid, or refuse authorisation of, any items which would cause the balance of your account to exceed the agreed limit.

 

9If we ever have to call for repayment, interest will contine to be charged at the rates set out in this letter on the amount you owe us, including any other sums deducted from your account, until you have repaid us in full. Interest, fees and charges will continueto be deducted from your account 14 days after your monthly charges calculation date. we may also change this date

 

10 Our personal customer terms and conditions also appy to your orchard account. If you do not have a copy. please ask us for one

 

11 We may change the charges, the terms of this letter, these terms and conditions and our personal customer terms and conditions by giving at least one calender month's notice in our branches, in the national press or by writing to you. the changes will apply from the date given in the notice.

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Well done JoJo, im sure we can use that somewhere.

Point 7.

Interesting, 24.6%, now what would that look like in a compound spreadsheet.

also note that it says nothing for what the £10 is for, its just an ' extra fee' or unjustified penalty, at least now they try to disguise it as a service

 

Keep looking, you just never know what else you may find

 

CM

Templates Library

 

GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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JoJo, do the same as you probably have done previous & send to a mod, or there is a email address somewhere to send to but i cant find the link.

 

Cm

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GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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JoJo, do the same as you probably have done previous & send to a mod, or there is a email address somewhere to send to but i cant find the link.

 

Cm

sorry dont understand what you mean???

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sorry dont understand what you mean???

 

Hi JOJO, did i read on one of the earlier posts that you had found account T & C's and this was a second lot. ( It might be me confsing things lol, too many late nights. ) What i meant was if you had found a second lot to send them same place as first ones.

 

CM

Templates Library

 

GE Capital Won

Capital 0ne Won

Northern rock Claim stayed working on negotiation

HSBC personal claim 1 ''WON''.

£1800 plus full stat interest plus costs.

Claim started 14/02/07 offer 3/07/07

 

Next:Coming soon to a thread near you! :)

HSBC personal Part 2 'return of the Celicaman'

HSBC business 1 ' my empire strikes back' N1 claim POC in progress after usual offensive offer from bank

HSBC business 2 'attack of the Celicaman'

HSBC business claim 3 'bank account menace'

HSBC business 4 'Revenge of the CAG Member' the final insult ....................... 'Maybe'

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